Discovery: Sound of Thunder

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
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CrypticMirror
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Mecha82 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:07 pm
Some real wold countries do things that way as well. Do you call USA terrorist country for using drones on innocent people? I doubt you do.
My Amnesty International membership says you are wrong on that. I'm not American, I do not have to pay lip service to American patriotism. Yes, America has behaved like a Rogue State for the last two decades at least.

However, comparison to the Cardassians or Klingons aside, America is not S31. And The Federation bears, or at least used to bear, little resemblance to post 9/11 America. And even if it did, even if America's worst of the worst in the CIA or seal teams, were in the show, even they would not be as bad as S31 because S31 self selects its own members based on nothing more than the whims and corruption of its current members without even the veneer of oversight that current America has for those instruments. Those self appointed members choose their own priorities, regardless of Federation member world's beliefs, often taking the easiest and laziest route to achieve them with no regard for life or wider policy implications, and then blackmail, kidnap, or subvert serving members to make them betray their oaths and also steal Starfleet equipment to do so. That is something illegal and theoretically punishable in court of law for even the CIA.

So, yes post 9/11 America is different only from the rest of the rogue nations of the world only by its historical goodness and the difficulty in sanctioning it. No, even then it is not as bad as S31. S31 is more analogous to one of those white supremacist groups which sends its members to sign up for military service for training and also to recruit other service members into the white supremacist cause. S31 is just The Klan with a better PR team. They are terrorists.

And for what it is worth, I acknowledge my own country has not been that great either. I'd be more than happy, and I speak as a left winger and occasional Labour supporter, to see Tony Blair in the dock in the Hague for his own part in those international terrorist crimes too. Marched more than once in that campaign too.
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Deledrius
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Mecha82 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:07 pm Some real wold countries do things that way as well. Do you call USA terrorist country for using drones on innocent people? I doubt you do. So on same standard Section 31 is morally grey rather than pure evil.
You'd be wrong if you think I don't call those atrocities for what they are.
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CrypticMirror
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Here, this is the story of the real life S31:
https://www.propublica.org/article/atomwaffen-division-hate-group-active-duty-military?utm_campaign=sprout&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_content=1525320851

and

https://gizmodo.com/leak-exposes-u-s-navy-sailor-as-once-prolific-recruite-1841149776

How a Neo-Nazi group infiltrated the US Military. This is almost exactly it. S31 is not cool space spies, nor even a space CIA, but the space terrorists.
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Yeah any groups that can act without reliable is not going to work for Earth or federation best interest just their own.
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Deledrius
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Thebestoftherest wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:52 pm Yeah any groups that can act without reliable is not going to work for Earth or federation best interest just their own.
Which, if someone was doing their job properly, would have been the real threat surrounding Section 31 in season 2 of Discovery.
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Deledrius wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:40 am
Thebestoftherest wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:52 pm Yeah any groups that can act without reliable is not going to work for Earth or federation best interest just their own.
Which, if someone was doing their job properly, would have been the real threat surrounding Section 31 in season 2 of Discovery.
They seem to have done so bad of a job they had to change the series premise to fix it.
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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The simplest way to square the circle is to say that, in Discovery's time, Section 31 was indeed an authorized part of Starfleet's intelligence operations, but that sometime between then and the TNG era, it was disbanded.

Imagine what would happen if the USA one day decided to disband the CIA. A lot of former CIA employees would likely find jobs in other government agencies. And some of them would likely feel that disbanding the CIA was a colossal mistake that was endangering America. So even though they no longer work for the CIA, because officially there is no CIA, they still try to use what government resources they have access to to do CIA sort of things, only now, since it's an unauthorized operation, they don't even have the small amount of oversight they did before. I could see something like that happening with Section 31.

Of course, none of that explains why no one on DS9 had ever heard of Section 31 before. Maybe it's just that none of them paid attention in their Federation history classes.
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CrypticMirror
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Fianna wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:22 am The simplest way to square the circle is to say that, in Discovery's time, Section 31 was indeed an authorized part of Starfleet's intelligence operations, but that sometime between then and the TNG era, it was disbanded.
Except it has already been shown in Enterprise that it is the same group of supremacist self appointed terrorists that it was in DS9.
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Enterprise was just a holodeck program Riker ran one time, though, so who knows if it's accurate. :)
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Re: Discovery: Sound of Thunder

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Fianna wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:19 pm Enterprise was just a holodeck program Riker ran one time, though, so who knows if it's accurate. :)
There was probably less scenes with the decontamination gel in the non-Riker cut. 8-)
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