DS9 - Rejoined

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clearspira
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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RobbyB1982 wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:14 pm
GreyICE wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:22 amAnother being the taboo isn't there anymore, and so this just seems weirdly dated.
The taboo is still there, just phasing out. It's easy to ignore because "gay marriage and equal rights are things now!" but you still get conservative groups that say, refuse to sell a cake to a gay couple or to stamp a marriage license.

It's not gone, anymore than racism or sexism are... we've just taken some steps to tone it down and move forward at least a little.

It took fifty odd years for Star Trek to have gay main characters (and then they fridged one of them... but then brought him back so its okay?) and Star Trek is generally super progressive. It's a process.

But hey, we have She-Ra now, so thats a win.
Very true. It wasn't that long ago that someone gunned down a gay club lets not forget.

I also think that it is easy when you live in a tolerant city or country to fool yourself into thinking that we are all now singing from the same hymn sheet but it is important to remember that there are countries out there where you can still be imprisoned or executed for being gay.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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TGLS wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:24 pm Why did they decide that adding more 9s was better than bigger numbers?
Because the Enterprise moves at the speed of plot as this table will happily demonstrate: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_factor

When you move at the speed of plot you need some fast way to communicate what a big number is to the audience. So you set a scale: 1 = lightspeed, 10 = infinity speed. So an 8 is "really fucking fast" and a 3 is "pretty plodding." Otherwise how does a warp factor 37 compare to a warp factor 81? Doesn't make any sense.

TOS used the same scale of plot speeds, only they didn't have 10 as a speed limit, leading to the infinity+1 problem (well the last baddie moved at speed 11, but this one moves at speed 13...)
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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I thought I remember the crew revolving around the sun at 7 point something to travel back in time. All I remember though is that the Bird of Prey barely handled it in Voyage Home. I don't remember how Enterprise held up to it in TOS.
..What mirror universe?
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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RobbyB1982 wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:11 pm
clearspira wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:25 amAnd when you factor in that TNG-era warp drive is slow
This is hilarious given they're literally travelling multiple times faster than the speed of light. A one hour trip at EMpulse speed to Saturn is a six year trip for for us.

Guess its all relative though. Space is really big and even at 9 times light speed it still takes a long time to clear a galaxy.
No matter how fast your travel is people will always say it's too slow. Make it faster and all the exotic places you previously couldn't get to are briefly great but then mundane, and you're just looking at the next further away lot and people grumbling how they're constrained to the galactic Local Group.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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We need a more progressive Galaxy.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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RobbyB1982 wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:14 pm
GreyICE wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:22 amAnother being the taboo isn't there anymore, and so this just seems weirdly dated.
The taboo is still there, just phasing out. It's easy to ignore because "gay marriage and equal rights are things now!" but you still get conservative groups that say, refuse to sell a cake to a gay couple or to stamp a marriage license.

It's not gone, anymore than racism or sexism are... we've just taken some steps to tone it down and move forward at least a little.

It took fifty odd years for Star Trek to have gay main characters (and then they fridged one of them... but then brought him back so its okay?) and Star Trek is generally super progressive. It's a process.

But hey, we have She-Ra now, so thats a win.
I still think that dates it, because whilst the issues haven't entirely gone in the past the mainstream acceptance is such that putting the emphasis on a kiss in the way this episode did still looks dated, when so much more of its audience will react with "so what?" I certainly think there are a lot more people now who'd only see it as a piece of speculative fiction about relationships in an alien society and nothing more, although that's by no means everyone.

We're not at the point yet where a non-straight couple draws no attention (and perversely current attitudes run the risk of including one gets seen as making a gesture rather than just happening to be another character trait) but it's not the event it would've been even at that time, although even then in many places the reaction at most would've been "ooh, two women kissing!" from a significant proportion rather than any controversy.

Come to think of it that's probably one area where people who say things are too male-dominated have a point, it might've been easier to get two women kissing then than two men.

Perhaps getting more controversial there is a potential issue when it no-one cares just whether it's even right to ask straight actors to do such a kiss.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:46 pm I thought I remember the crew revolving around the sun at 7 point something to travel back in time. All I remember though is that the Bird of Prey barely handled it in Voyage Home. I don't remember how Enterprise held up to it in TOS.
Wasn't the scale redefined somewhere between TOS and TNG?
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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Riedquat wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:55 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:46 pm I thought I remember the crew revolving around the sun at 7 point something to travel back in time. All I remember though is that the Bird of Prey barely handled it in Voyage Home. I don't remember how Enterprise held up to it in TOS.
Wasn't the scale redefined somewhere between TOS and TNG?
I just know the technology is vamped over those 80 years, but I'm not sure about the scale I guess I'll have to check.

Apparently it's about as different as yards to meters.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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Hmm, 293 more pages to go.
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Re: DS9 - Rejoined

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Riedquat wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:53 pmWe're not at the point yet where a non-straight couple draws no attention (and perversely current attitudes run the risk of including one gets seen as making a gesture rather than just happening to be another character trait) but it's not the event it would've been even at that time, although even then in many places the reaction at most would've been "ooh, two women kissing!" from a significant proportion rather than any controversy.

Come to think of it that's probably one area where people who say things are too male-dominated have a point, it might've been easier to get two women kissing then than two men.

Perhaps getting more controversial there is a potential issue when it no-one cares just whether it's even right to ask straight actors to do such a kiss.
You have a rather halycon view of 1995. That was two years after the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" act started a witch hunt in the military for gay soldiers, the Supreme Court ruled that parade organizers didn't have to allow LGBT groups to march with them, and the year that Clinton finally allowed LGB people to gain security clearance - yes, before that being LGB was grounds for utter revocation of security clearance, no matter what (Transgender people would have to wait a while). Still a black mark, mind you, but not utter disqualification. This was a time when it was mainstream that being gay was a perversion, gay teachers were automatically disqualified, and murdering people for being gay still occurred and got a lot of mainstream sympathy.

I'd agree that male sexuality is generally seen as more threatening, and therefore lesbians often get a pass in terms of portrayal (especially if conventionally attractive, and with the acknowledgment that "men can join in too"). To this day you can very much tell the bias exists - the Mass Effect series allowed gay romance options for women back in the first game, and second game, but it took until the third game to have a gay male romance option - at which point there was outcry against the concept. Conventionally attractive gay women who later return to men are simply the "safe" way to portray homosexuality - women are mislead by their silly feelings and think they can have romance with each other, but later a good hot dicking fixes them.

Riedquat wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:53 pmPerhaps getting more controversial there is a potential issue when it no-one cares just whether it's even right to ask straight actors to do such a kiss.
Given Terry Farrell explicitly for it and cites it as one of her favorite episodes, I do wonder at this odd desire to protect someone who doesn't want your protection.

Although Memory Alpha tells me Avery Brooks told Entertainment Tonight to go pound sand when they wanted to film the kiss, because he didn't want it sensationalized, so he made a pro-LGBT rights allegory and didn't even get any viewer boost from sensationalism. Avery Brooks, continuing to be an utter class act, and showing why Rick Berman hated his guts at the same time (not that Berman had the balls to do anything about it - this is fucking Sisko here).
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