DS:9 "What You Leave Behind"

[Beastro]

"Her" definition, thank you. And yeah, feature not bug. Gods are what you have instead of scientific explanations or processes.

And yet people still have them, even if it's just money.

I think you've demonstrated that you are a very poor candidate to set the criteria for divinity.

One needs to simply not have as narrow-minded a anti-theism as "she" does.

That isn't to say to CrypicMirror to accept the concept, but that others do that doesn't meet their absolutist antitheist criteria.

[Archon_Wing]

But I felt it would have been better without the "Dukat's a Fire Demon" thing. The whole Pai-wraiths subplot just felt so out of place and the way Sisko went is certainly as he lived, but he really did deserve better. I somehow think that Dukat should have been somewhere in the Dominion War; I mean they managed to shove Sloan in a relevant role, so I'm sure a major antagonist could have been used better in the end.

Regarding the Prophets (rant incoming):

Somehow one of the Prophets possessed a human and lived passably as a human for at least a couple of years. There's no way she could have pulled that off and still remained enigmatic and unknowable. So having a Prophet literally serving as Sisko's mother falls flat on its face when you introduce any kind of religious problem into the plot. WHY is it Sisko's destiny to destroy a damn book? It seems that your significant religious figure is of much more use being where he can work with people rather than doing something any idiot in this universe could have done. If it's imperative for this book to be destroyed, they should just freaking say so. They know the future so they could have asked Sisko to work this miracle on an off day. "Hey, I know it's important that you play a baseball game against the Vulcans, but after that, would you mind running down to Bajor and tossing this book into a furnace to prevent a religious war? Thanks."

This isn't described like some magical artifact that can only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom. You took the sense that Sisko was building up to something, and the thing you gave him to do at the end is the most dumb and boring thing. And why was this something he had to do himself? It seems like having a dozen well-armed men there to distract Dukat while someone chucked the book off the ledge might have worked better. Then THIS is the payoff of "yoi will know only sorrow" where he leaves his wife and son behind...as if he'd have been perfectly only with leaving Jake and Cassidy if he hadn't gotten married. The whole religious arc builds up to a pile of garbage.

Oh that.... I actively ignore the whole crap about his mother.

Sometimes it's best to leave things mysterious, because if you try to come up with an explanation, it might just sound stupid. /insert Midichlorian joke.

As is, that stuff is just noise. It adds literally nothing to the story.

[bronnt]

Oh that.... I actively ignore the whole crap about his mother.

Sometimes it's best to leave things mysterious, because if you try to come up with an explanation, it might just sound stupid. /insert Midichlorian joke.

As is, that stuff is just noise. It adds literally nothing to the story.

There was a time I tried to ignore it. But really, it's an iron boot that stomps all over the 7th season. She becomes the sole face of the Prophets talking to Sisko at this point. Prior to this, they only communicated in vague, confused ways, taking the faces of people in each person's mind without rhyme or reason. After this, it's just this one Prophet who never showed up before and is wearing a completely consistent face. Considering that they tried to pretend that there was some build-up to this religious story arc, it's pretty bad.

[G-Man]

I personally think that the Pah-Wraith arc would have been better if the Dominion had allied with them to try to defeat the Prophets; that is, if the sixth season finale had been the start of the story arc. The Prophets wiping out the Dominion Fleet was always unsatisfying to me, because it made them such game-breaking force; it would have been good to have had the Dominion trying to overcome them. Instead, the Dominion stops being concerned about the Prophets and we get the long, meandering Dukat and Winn arc. I think the finale should have involved Dukat allying with Winn, but Winn would go through the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant and have the Dominion prepare a fleet to use to conquer the Alpha Quadrant as soon as the Pah-Wraiths took control of the wormhole (oh, and not having a chroniton array be able to kill the prophets (as in The Assignment); it would only stun them for long enough for a Pah-Wraith to drive them out if he was present (otherwise, getting rid of the Prophets would be too easy). Basically, the Dominion would attack the Wormhole with a chroniton array while Dukat releases the Pah Wraiths. Winn would be semi-possessed (think of a Tok'Ra) with the Pah-wraith that Dukat had released in Season 6, but it would be too weak to take the wormhole on its own.

Basically, as soon as the Dominion War in the Alpha Quadrant is over, it would be discovered that communications through the Wormhole are cut off, but not before the fact that the Dominion is planning an invasion and, not knowing about the Peace Treaty, are planning to go in and wipe out the Alpha Quadrant in frustration over the Founders' illness (perhaps someone discovered that the plague was engineered, giving them another incentive). The wormhole also refuses to open so that anyone can go through and call off the attack.

This has happened because Dukat has started the process of releasing the Pah-Wraiths (some combination of rituals and scientific apparatus; think the way that the Ivo Shandor cult called Gozer in Ghostbusters, using rituals while also designing the building to be a receiver), and access to the wormhole is blocked.

The Prophets warn Sisko and he goes down and confronts Dukat. Much the same thing happens as in the actual final episode, only while Dukat is toying with the helpless Sisko, he suddenly gets shot with powerful chroniton guns (designed by Rom) wielded by Garak and Kira. It turns out that Sisko was merely distracting him while they get into position. The book does appear to have become the door for the Pah-Wraiths to get out, and after Sisko knocks Dukat down, Kira and Garak fire on it with the weapons and it implodes, pulling Sisko and Dukat in with it.

The Pah-wraith in Winn would feel what happened, and scream as suddenly the wormhole opens and an emergency message from Sanders gets through. Being told that the Federation will cure the Founders, but that the invasion must be called off, and that the Pah-Wraiths knew this but were willing to continue the war and let the Founders die in order to satisfy their vendetta, the Jem'Ha'Dar kill Winn and her Wraith runs away into space.

Peace is declared and everything else is pretty much the same.

There are a few holes or things that would need to be worked out, but there's the general outline.

[FakeGeekGirl]

I personally think that the Pah-Wraith arc would have been better if the Dominion had allied with them to try to defeat the Prophets; that is, if the sixth season finale had been the start of the story arc. The Prophets wiping out the Dominion Fleet was always unsatisfying to me, because it made them such game-breaking force; it would have been good to have had the Dominion trying to overcome them. Instead, the Dominion stops being concerned about the Prophets and we get the long, meandering Dukat and Winn arc. I think the finale should have involved Dukat allying with Winn, but Winn would go through the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant and have the Dominion prepare a fleet to use to conquer the Alpha Quadrant as soon as the Pah-Wraiths took control of the wormhole (oh, and not having a chroniton array be able to kill the prophets (as in The Assignment); it would only stun them for long enough for a Pah-Wraith to drive them out if he was present (otherwise, getting rid of the Prophets would be too easy). Basically, the Dominion would attack the Wormhole with a chroniton array while Dukat releases the Pah Wraiths. Winn would be semi-possessed (think of a Tok'Ra) with the Pah-wraith that Dukat had released in Season 6, but it would be too weak to take the wormhole on its own.

Basically, as soon as the Dominion War in the Alpha Quadrant is over, it would be discovered that communications through the Wormhole are cut off, but not before the fact that the Dominion is planning an invasion and, not knowing about the Peace Treaty, are planning to go in and wipe out the Alpha Quadrant in frustration over the Founders' illness (perhaps someone discovered that the plague was engineered, giving them another incentive). The wormhole also refuses to open so that anyone can go through and call off the attack.

This has happened because Dukat has started the process of releasing the Pah-Wraiths (some combination of rituals and scientific apparatus; think the way that the Ivo Shandor cult called Gozer in Ghostbusters, using rituals while also designing the building to be a receiver), and access to the wormhole is blocked.

The Prophets warn Sisko and he goes down and confronts Dukat. Much the same thing happens as in the actual final episode, only while Dukat is toying with the helpless Sisko, he suddenly gets shot with powerful chroniton guns (designed by Rom) wielded by Garak and Kira. It turns out that Sisko was merely distracting him while they get into position. The book does appear to have become the door for the Pah-Wraiths to get out, and after Sisko knocks Dukat down, Kira and Garak fire on it with the weapons and it implodes, pulling Sisko and Dukat in with it.

The Pah-wraith in Winn would feel what happened, and scream as suddenly the wormhole opens and an emergency message from Sanders gets through. Being told that the Federation will cure the Founders, but that the invasion must be called off, and that the Pah-Wraiths knew this but were willing to continue the war and let the Founders die in order to satisfy their vendetta, the Jem'Ha'Dar kill Winn and her Wraith runs away into space.

Peace is declared and everything else is pretty much the same.

There are a few holes or things that would need to be worked out, but there's the general outline.

That sounds like an interesting way to tie things together. I am not sure how many more episodes they would have needed to cover that though - at least a couple of more to build it up.

[drewder]

I just rewatched it and noticed a line of chuck's that I really liked. "Once you become hardened in the belief that you are always the the victim, then even when you are the oppressor you'll still believe that you're the victim."

[Nevix]

You know... I never checked this before, when the series first ended.

In Statistical Probabilities, the "mutants", (AKA: The other people who were genetically enhanced like Bashir was) predicted that the war with the Dominion was unwinnable, and that there would be 900 Billion casualties by the end of the war.

By the end of What You Leave Behind, there's 800 million dead Cardassians, and who knows how many other people dead in the war effort, be they civilians or soldiers, on both sides.

EDIT: As is pointed out below, my math is way off. The "mutants" were actually wrong, but Sisko's "plague of insects" vision was horrifyingly right, with Cardassia taking the brunt of the damage that the Dominion does before the war ends. :EndEDIT

They were off by around 100 million, but it's only 11.25% off. The "mutants" were right about the casualties, but they were wrong about the war being impossible to win.

[Robovski]

You er, made a mistake there with how many zeroes you have there in that calculation. 900 Billion is 900,000,000,000 while 800 million is 800,000,000. So you have to lose 10 to the factor of 3, or 1,000 times less. So more like .001125% of the projected death toll. Of course that is JUST the Cardassian preliminary estimates and just the Cardassians.

[Nevix]

You er, made a mistake there with how many zeroes you have there in that calculation. 900 Billion is 900,000,000,000 while 800 million is 800,000,000. So you have to lose 10 to the factor of 3, or 1,000 times less. So more like .001125% of the projected death toll. Of course that is JUST the Cardassian preliminary estimates and just the Cardassians.

Ah, dangit. Mis-remembered the numbers there.

So, actually wrong for the number of casualties, and the Casdassians take the brunt of the horror the Dominion inflicted.

Sisko's "plague of insects/locusts" vision was more accurate than he realized.

[Madner Kami]

The mutants are off for a lot of reasons and it's all a matter of statistics. They lacked data to provide an accurate assessment. For example, how could they anticipate the Prophets intervening and making an entire fleet of the Dominion go *poof*. Or Sisko's betrayal of his own morality, that brought the Romulans into the war? And so on.