TNG: Peak Performance

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

That seems pretty long winded description for what amounts to technological development differences between pretty much any colonizing force and an indigenous one. I read through the last long winded one and this one seems to follow suit to basically describe what everybody already knows from 1950's stereotypes of Cowboys and Indians.

Well, it seems as if you didn't get it the first time around. I thought maybe I had to explain a little better. I could just as well talk about the Africans vs. Europeans or the Indians vs. British, or the Americans vs. Japanese.

You can call this description a stereotype from the 1950s, but their interpretation was pretty much true in various regards. There are a lot of myths about the American Indians since then, borne by morons who have political axes to grind.

I don’t believe so. You suggested that it was reflective of American relations with indigenous cultures, immediately in the same post going into specific detail of each tribe’s battle capability, which doesn’t enhance anybody’s understanding of how the borg are more technically advanced the Federation.

[McAvoy]

I think 9/11 works the best as far as waking up a complacent power and taking measures to prevent it from happening again. There isn't much to go on when it comes to on screen evidence that Starfleet did this. The Defiant is the only one and she was shelved due to her having problems and politics (the threat of the Borg waning always sounded like a political thing than Starfleet actually thinking thd Borg threat was gone).

The whole waking up of Starfleet was the fans talking about it using background information like certain starship classes like the Akira or the Sovereign were designed to fight the Borg.

Combined with how TNG presented itself for most of its run too.

You raise a good point though as to why the Federation decided the Borg threat was over given how the Borg would send a second cube soon after.

Sisko talking about the Defiant sounded alot like politics got involved in her mothballing. Hell, she was classified as a 'escort' instead of being called a warship.

I think this is what happened, Starfleet and the Federation became very worried of the Borg in the first official encounter. Crash course into new weapons and systems. Defiant and other classes are developed. Wolf 359 happens, the fleet was already being upgraded and expanded with the new classes and technology. Politicians view that Starfleet will be better prepared next time. The Council doesn't want Starfleet to be too militaristic. They don't want to provoke the Romulans or other powers.

The overpowered little Defiant gets mothballed since she doesn't have a place in Starfleet as they were at the time.

The Dominion appears, Sisko grabs the Defiant. Starfleet gets ready. Council still reluctant to go into full mobilization of the fleet. But over time between the Klingons and the Cardassians joining the Dominion, Starfleet is allowed to go into full war time production.

[drewder]

I think 9/11 works the best as far as waking up a complacent power and taking measures to prevent it from happening again. There isn't much to go on when it comes to on screen evidence that Starfleet did this. The Defiant is the only one and she was shelved due to her having problems and politics (the threat of the Borg waning always sounded like a political thing than Starfleet actually thinking thd Borg threat was gone).

The whole waking up of Starfleet was the fans talking about it using background information like certain starship classes like the Akira or the Sovereign were designed to fight the Borg.

Combined with how TNG presented itself for most of its run too.

You raise a good point though as to why the Federation decided the Borg threat was over given how the Borg would send a second cube soon after.

I'm not convinced that the federation believed that the borg had multiple cubes. From the first encounter q made it seem like there was just the one.

[Rocketboy1313]

I'm not convinced that the federation believed that the borg had multiple cubes. From the first encounter q made it seem like there was just the one.

This is an interesting perspective.

It is hard now to picture the Borg as anything other than this vast plague of cyborg zombies sweeping across the galaxy. But the Federation had no way of knowing that.

Maybe the Cube was like Galactus, a solitary monster wandering the stars. It is not like they haven't encountered such things before, like the Crystalline Entity or the Doomsday Machine.

But I have to imagine them asking Guinan, "Um... you wanna fill us in on these guys?" and then filing a more complete report.

[McAvoy]

I'm not convinced that the federation believed that the borg had multiple cubes. From the first encounter q made it seem like there was just the one.

This is an interesting perspective.

It is hard now to picture the Borg as anything other than this vast plague of cyborg zombies sweeping across the galaxy. But the Federation had no way of knowing that.

Maybe the Cube was like Galactus, a solitary monster wandering the stars. It is not like they haven't encountered such things before, like the Crystalline Entity or the Doomsday Machine.

But I have to imagine them asking Guinan, "Um... you wanna fill us in on these guys?" and then filing a more complete report.

If we were strictly talking only TNG at that point, then I can see Starfleet thinking it's only one cube. Possibly.

Then you have to factor in Guinan's people, Seven of Nine's parents knew of them, someone may have figured out the robot zombies Cochrane and then later Archer talked about were the Borg.

Problem is that by I Borg, the did encounter the Borg again and they had a scout ship. I think that was season 5. So they had like a year and half to think the only Borg cube in the galaxy was destroyed.

[Beastro]

I think 9/11 works the best as far as waking up a complacent power and taking measures to prevent it from happening again. There isn't much to go on when it comes to on screen evidence that Starfleet did this. The Defiant is the only one and she was shelved due to her having problems and politics (the threat of the Borg waning always sounded like a political thing than Starfleet actually thinking thd Borg threat was gone).

The whole waking up of Starfleet was the fans talking about it using background information like certain starship classes like the Akira or the Sovereign were designed to fight the Borg.

Combined with how TNG presented itself for most of its run too.

You raise a good point though as to why the Federation decided the Borg threat was over given how the Borg would send a second cube soon after.

Sisko talking about the Defiant sounded alot like politics got involved in her mothballing. Hell, she was classified as a 'escort' instead of being called a warship.

I think this is what happened, Starfleet and the Federation became very worried of the Borg in the first official encounter. Crash course into new weapons and systems. Defiant and other classes are developed. Wolf 359 happens, the fleet was already being upgraded and expanded with the new classes and technology. Politicians view that Starfleet will be better prepared next time. The Council doesn't want Starfleet to be too militaristic. They don't want to provoke the Romulans or other powers.

The overpowered little Defiant gets mothballed since she doesn't have a place in Starfleet as they were at the time.

The Dominion appears, Sisko grabs the Defiant. Starfleet gets ready. Council still reluctant to go into full mobilization of the fleet. But over time between the Klingons and the Cardassians joining the Dominion, Starfleet is allowed to go into full war time production.

What happened was what happened to the USN's original Six Frigates. Jefferson hated the idea of the Navy being able to project power and hated those warships most of all, so he neutered them as much as he could and insisted on building tons of gunboats that couldn't operate far from shore.

The gunboats were hyped as more effective as defensive weapons to protect US shores, but they were near useless in battle. Battle wasn't their point, though, it was a political fig-leaf to cripple the Navy.

Then Jefferson finds himself at war with France and the Barbary States and the gunboats don't do shit while the Six Frigates come in to do the hard work because they were properly built for war, same as Defiant. After that, the gunboats get their day fighting the British in 1812 and prove everyone right as near useless outside of very limited circumstances (protecting New Orleans).

[McAvoy]

I think 9/11 works the best as far as waking up a complacent power and taking measures to prevent it from happening again. There isn't much to go on when it comes to on screen evidence that Starfleet did this. The Defiant is the only one and she was shelved due to her having problems and politics (the threat of the Borg waning always sounded like a political thing than Starfleet actually thinking thd Borg threat was gone).

The whole waking up of Starfleet was the fans talking about it using background information like certain starship classes like the Akira or the Sovereign were designed to fight the Borg.

Combined with how TNG presented itself for most of its run too.

You raise a good point though as to why the Federation decided the Borg threat was over given how the Borg would send a second cube soon after.

Sisko talking about the Defiant sounded alot like politics got involved in her mothballing. Hell, she was classified as a 'escort' instead of being called a warship.

I think this is what happened, Starfleet and the Federation became very worried of the Borg in the first official encounter. Crash course into new weapons and systems. Defiant and other classes are developed. Wolf 359 happens, the fleet was already being upgraded and expanded with the new classes and technology. Politicians view that Starfleet will be better prepared next time. The Council doesn't want Starfleet to be too militaristic. They don't want to provoke the Romulans or other powers.

The overpowered little Defiant gets mothballed since she doesn't have a place in Starfleet as they were at the time.

The Dominion appears, Sisko grabs the Defiant. Starfleet gets ready. Council still reluctant to go into full mobilization of the fleet. But over time between the Klingons and the Cardassians joining the Dominion, Starfleet is allowed to go into full war time production.

What happened was what happened to the USN's original Six Frigates. Jefferson hated the idea of the Navy being able to project power and hated those warships most of all, so he neutered them as much as he could and insisted on building tons of gunboats that couldn't operate far from shore.

The gunboats were hyped as more effective as defensive weapons to protect US shores, but they were near useless in battle. Battle wasn't their point, though, it was a political fig-leaf to cripple the Navy.

Then Jefferson finds himself at war with France and the Barbary States and the gunboats don't do shit while the Six Frigates come in to do the hard work because they were properly built for war, same as Defiant. After that, the gunboats get their day fighting the British in 1812 and prove everyone right as near useless outside of very limited circumstances (protecting New Orleans).

This sort of mentality lasted until the 20th century and probably ended with the 1916 program for the Navy.

If you read up on the early New Navy as this Era is called for the US Navy you will hear or read about how politicians did not want full sized battleships like the other powers had. Monitors (modern form) they are OK. Sea going battleships no. US Navy was very isolationist until a 100 years ago. The first two battleships Texas and Maine were pure crap designs. They were more about getting the industry up and running though in hindsight. The three that followed them the Indiana class were small ships and had freeboard not that much greater than a monitor but carried heavy armor and armament.

The US Navy at one point were pretty much Ed allow enough funds to build either two battleships or they could fund to build let's say armored cruisers or later battlecruisers. Navy decided of course to build two battleships, which did give the Navy on paper a powerful battle line but very top heavy in big ships.

It wasn't until basically all pretense of being isolationist was dropped when the Navy was allowed to build a total of 16 ships. Four Colorados, six South Dakota and six Lexington class ships.

[drewder]

I'm not convinced that the federation believed that the borg had multiple cubes. From the first encounter q made it seem like there was just the one.

This is an interesting perspective.

It is hard now to picture the Borg as anything other than this vast plague of cyborg zombies sweeping across the galaxy. But the Federation had no way of knowing that.

Maybe the Cube was like Galactus, a solitary monster wandering the stars. It is not like they haven't encountered such things before, like the Crystalline Entity or the Doomsday Machine.

But I have to imagine them asking Guinan, "Um... you wanna fill us in on these guys?" and then filing a more complete report.

There's no reason that Guinan would be aware of there being multiple cubes either. She only heard of the Borg secondhand from refugees. Presumably since one cube was sufficient to take on the entire federation had the enterprise not pulled off their nat 20 in hacking, Guinan's people would have likely succumbed to a single cube as well. I doubt anyone was all that motivated to go exploring in the direction that the cube came from.

[Beastro]

I think 9/11 works the best as far as waking up a complacent power and taking measures to prevent it from happening again. There isn't much to go on when it comes to on screen evidence that Starfleet did this. The Defiant is the only one and she was shelved due to her having problems and politics (the threat of the Borg waning always sounded like a political thing than Starfleet actually thinking thd Borg threat was gone).

The whole waking up of Starfleet was the fans talking about it using background information like certain starship classes like the Akira or the Sovereign were designed to fight the Borg.

Combined with how TNG presented itself for most of its run too.

You raise a good point though as to why the Federation decided the Borg threat was over given how the Borg would send a second cube soon after.

Sisko talking about the Defiant sounded alot like politics got involved in her mothballing. Hell, she was classified as a 'escort' instead of being called a warship.

I think this is what happened, Starfleet and the Federation became very worried of the Borg in the first official encounter. Crash course into new weapons and systems. Defiant and other classes are developed. Wolf 359 happens, the fleet was already being upgraded and expanded with the new classes and technology. Politicians view that Starfleet will be better prepared next time. The Council doesn't want Starfleet to be too militaristic. They don't want to provoke the Romulans or other powers.

The overpowered little Defiant gets mothballed since she doesn't have a place in Starfleet as they were at the time.

The Dominion appears, Sisko grabs the Defiant. Starfleet gets ready. Council still reluctant to go into full mobilization of the fleet. But over time between the Klingons and the Cardassians joining the Dominion, Starfleet is allowed to go into full war time production.

What happened was what happened to the USN's original Six Frigates. Jefferson hated the idea of the Navy being able to project power and hated those warships most of all, so he neutered them as much as he could and insisted on building tons of gunboats that couldn't operate far from shore.

The gunboats were hyped as more effective as defensive weapons to protect US shores, but they were near useless in battle. Battle wasn't their point, though, it was a political fig-leaf to cripple the Navy.

Then Jefferson finds himself at war with France and the Barbary States and the gunboats don't do shit while the Six Frigates come in to do the hard work because they were properly built for war, same as Defiant. After that, the gunboats get their day fighting the British in 1812 and prove everyone right as near useless outside of very limited circumstances (protecting New Orleans).

This sort of mentality lasted until the 20th century and probably ended with the 1916 program for the Navy.

If you read up on the early New Navy as this Era is called for the US Navy you will hear or read about how politicians did not want full sized battleships like the other powers had. Monitors (modern form) they are OK. Sea going battleships no. US Navy was very isolationist until a 100 years ago. The first two battleships Texas and Maine were pure crap designs. They were more about getting the industry up and running though in hindsight. The three that followed them the Indiana class were small ships and had freeboard not that much greater than a monitor but carried heavy armor and armament.

The US Navy at one point were pretty much Ed allow enough funds to build either two battleships or they could fund to build let's say armored cruisers or later battlecruisers. Navy decided of course to build two battleships, which did give the Navy on paper a powerful battle line but very top heavy in big ships.

It wasn't until basically all pretense of being isolationist was dropped when the Navy was allowed to build a total of 16 ships. Four Colorados, six South Dakota and six Lexington class ships.

There were moments. The Navy after the Barbary Wars and 1812 proved the merit of frigates in maritime protection, so they had a nice, fairly quiet period between then and Civil War of cruising the world.

After the Civil War the country kept maintaining the idea that they could treat the Navy like they treated the Army, near neutered and could be built up on the eve of war. The Navy reached the moment sooner when that simply wasn't possible. By the turn of the century you needed your forces at the start of the war or you were screwed. It took a few more decades, but WWII was the last time the US could pull off the mobilization of the army from scratch like they'd done since the beginning of the Republic.

Most American do not realize how scared their country has been of the military and how despised it has historically been. It is why all officers were trained as engineers up to at least the Civil War so they could be fired in peace time and allowed possible careers as civil engineers to build up the country to keep any from going Napoleon as people dreaded.

[CrypticMirror]

Most American do not realize how scared their country has been of the military and how despised it has historically been.

And rightly so. Standing armies mean you soon get standing wars. Militaries are something that you ramp up in times of war, but defund immediately as soon as the [tightly defined] victory conditions can be met. Otherwise you get... well, the current situation in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is why all officers were trained as engineers up to at least the Civil War so they could be fired in peace time and allowed possible careers as civil engineers to build up the country to keep any from going Napoleon as people dreaded.

And the events in America earlier this year [and ongoing events in the UK] show the wisdom of this approach.