Hope and Fear

This forum is for discussing Chuck's videos as they are publicly released. And for bashing Neelix, but that's just repeating what I already said.
hypocratus
Redshirt
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:16 pm

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by hypocratus »

The reason for the limited ships at Wolf 359 is that they had a very limited amount of time to get the ships together. Even in the time of the Federation logistics matter.
User avatar
McAvoy
Captain
Posts: 3800
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:55 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by McAvoy »

clearspira wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:52 pm
Fianna wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 8:54 am I don't remember who said it or where I heard it, but I think someone involved with the show once said that, if you're capable of building a replicator large/powerful/advanced enough to replicate a starship, then you've reached the same tier as all those godlike aliens, and no longer need a starship to travel the galaxy.
That is a fair enough point... however, that then invalidates the many hand waves that fans have come up with over the years to explain Starfleet going from thirty-seven ships at Wolf 359 to literally thousands of them by the Dominion War only a couple of years later. I also want to note that A) Starfleet had been preparing for this invasion because they knew it was coming and B) Wolf 359 is eight light years from Earth, which in Star Trek terms is just down the road.

Incidentally, it also actually invalidates the handwave for Voyager's infinite supply of shuttlecraft and photon torpedoes.
They had what a couple of days to form that fleet at Wolf 359. That is 1460c or Warp 8.9. Traveling for two days for those the most distant. Maybe some coming in faster as we know the Galaxy class could go Warp 9.2. Keep in mind they have to maintain this speed for 48 hours.

So year 40 ships seems not like alot compared to the 600+ ships that were sent to retake DS9 or the 300+ allies ships destroyed over Chintoka.

But keep in mind, Starfleet had a year and they weren't exactly sure where the Borg would come from. Just saying the Delta Quadrant still means you got to patrol tens of thousands of light years.

Not to mention still have ships patrolling other areas of space. And they had to intercept the Borg ship too at a specified place.

Did anyone say the Borg ship was on a direct course for Earth early on in the two parter?
I got nothing to say here.
Fianna
Captain
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:46 pm

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by Fianna »

It's also possible the Federation might not have devoted the resources to fighting the Borg ship that they should have. Their entire knowledge of the Borg at that point came from the Enterprise's two encounters with them, one of which was so recent that the data was probably still being analyzed, and the other was part of a Q manipulation, so it comes with a big "was this even real?" asterisk.

Some Admiral or another may have looked at the situation and decided, sure, the Borg cube is big, but if we outnumber them forty to one, that oughta be enough; no need to pull more ships away from their important work than we have to.
User avatar
CrypticMirror
Captain
Posts: 926
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:15 am

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by CrypticMirror »

Consider also the Federation has a long history of big space objects that show up out of nowhere, pose a big threat, get their ass kicked by a single starship (usually called Enterprise) and are never heard from again. Should they have taken it more seriously, yes; is it understandable why they didn't, and may even have thought forty odd ships was enough, also yes.
remagynona
Redshirt
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:20 am

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by remagynona »

What's weird is that the research engaged in by the Hansens shows that knowledge of the Borg was possessed by Federation scientists decades before Q Who. Entire planets in travel distance of Earth like the El Aurian's had been wiped out already as well. Their existence couldn't have been a huge secret. It feels like a major plot hole that neither Starfleet, the Romulans or the Klingons knew that this major force was on their frontiers and nobody was preparing just in case. Hell, I would think survivors from those destroyed planets would be going to every major power they could find and warning them of the dangers the Borg posed. Guinan didn't say a word until the Enterprise was sitting in front of a cube.
User avatar
Frustration
Captain
Posts: 1607
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:16 pm

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by Frustration »

It's worth noting that the Borg were a very long way away... and that sole Borg cube was in Federation space only because Q piqued their interest and they devoted a cube to travel. Thus, first contact was much earlier than it would otherwise have been.

The real issue, of course, is that the original intended threat was those mind-control insectoids, which were built up slowly.
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two equals four. If that is granted, all else follows." -- George Orwell, 1984
User avatar
Madner Kami
Captain
Posts: 4016
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:35 pm

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by Madner Kami »

Frustration wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:49 pm It's worth noting that the Borg were a very long way away... and that sole Borg cube was in Federation space only because Q piqued their interest and they devoted a cube to travel. Thus, first contact was much earlier than it would otherwise have been.

The real issue, of course, is that the original intended threat was those mind-control insectoids, which were built up slowly.
The Borg were already in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant since, at the very least, episode 26 of the very first season. At the time they weren't identified and it wasn't specifically mentioned again, but the outside force destroying both Romulan and Federation outposts in "The Neutral Zone", were in fact the Borg.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
User avatar
Frustration
Captain
Posts: 1607
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:16 pm

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by Frustration »

Not at the time those episodes were made. They were retroactively declared to be the result of the Borg.

Again: those mind-controlling alien insectoid parasites were originally going to be the opponents, but they were abandoned. The Borg were developed to take up the role the insectoids were going to have.
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two equals four. If that is granted, all else follows." -- George Orwell, 1984
User avatar
TGLS
Captain
Posts: 2916
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:16 pm

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by TGLS »

Frustration wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:13 am Not at the time those episodes were made. They were retroactively declared to be the result of the Borg.
Well, given that Maurice Hurley went on record saying that The Neutral Zone was to be the first of a trilogy of episodes that would introduce the Borg, you're at least partially wrong.
Frustration wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:13 amAgain: those mind-controlling alien insectoid parasites were originally going to be the opponents, but they were abandoned.
Well, I did find a brief note that the Conspiracy parasites were supposed to feed into the Borg. This could be misremembering, or cut when they decided the Borg weren't going to be insectoids, or something dropped when the trilogy was dropped, or Maurice Hurley screwing with Tracy Torme. Nobody can really say.

--

Regardless, it doesn't matter what didn't happen.
Image
"I know what you’re thinking now. You’re thinking 'Oh my god, that’s treating other people with respect gone mad!'"
When I am writing in this font, I am writing in my moderator voice.
Spam-desu
User avatar
Madner Kami
Captain
Posts: 4016
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:35 pm

Re: Hope and Fear

Post by Madner Kami »

Frustration wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:13 am Not at the time those episodes were made. They were retroactively declared to be the result of the Borg.

Again: those mind-controlling alien insectoid parasites were originally going to be the opponents, but they were abandoned. The Borg were developed to take up the role the insectoids were going to have.
You should actually follow the link and read it. The body-snatchers were supposed to tie into the Borg which were originally intended to be an insectoid hive-mind species. This was later dropped, for budgetary reasons and the Borg morphed into the techno-organic species we know them as. The mysterious force attacking both Federation and Romulans were always supposed to be the "new big bad after the Ferengi". The Borg.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
Post Reply