Empire Strikes Back

[Jonathan101]

Y'all have Ozzel wrong. He's the bridge between the first movie (where Vader is overtly disliked and ultimately subordinate to the military) and the sequels, where Vader is unleashed after the disaster and jumps the chain of command through fear and murder.

It seems to me that Ozzel wasn't so much incompetent as resisting orders. Presumably the super star destroyer is (was) his, and Ozzel feels like he's humoring some "Lord" from the emperor's inner circle, chasing a small band of rebels to settle a personal vendetta. Compare Ozzel's attitude to the attitude of the officers from the original star wars. They don't like Vader; they think he's a "sorcerer" and a petty thug. Also, if you watch carefully, you'll see that before Ozzel's murder, Vader gives orders, but everyone looks to Ozzel before actually following them. Think Vader didn't notice that?

And the idea that Ozzel makes a mistake strikes me as very wrong; the rebels knew about the impending attack because they saw the probe droid. Ozzel knew that and decided to pounce as quickly as possible to give them less time to prepare. That's the right move, and surely Vader knew that, but he couldn't pass on the pretext to murder his rival. Then he puts the sycophant Piett in charge, who ends up failing at everything he attempts for the rest of the trilogy. Think about Endor -- think Ozzel would have just sat there waiting for orders that never came because his boss was too busy to give the order to attack?

The Rebels knew that the Empire was onto them (in spite of Ozzel, remember- he wanted to ignore the lead), but they responded by starting an evacuation. When Ozzel showed up, the Rebels put up their shield generator, which is the sort of thing Vader wanted to avoid- he wanted to keep his distance and assess the situation before launching the attack. Vader is a veteran general of the Clone Wars and a literal psychic- he knows what he's doing.

And the idea that he saw Ozzel as some kind of "rival" is ludicrous- Vader is in charge here (both Legends and Canon EU establish that by this point, Vader was made Commander-In-Chief of the entire Imperial Navy in fact, but even ignoring that its clear who is in charge); Ozzel is his subordinate, and he kills him on a whim and then promotes the guy next to him, and later he reminds this guy that if HE screws up too many times he can be replaced just as easily. An officer looking to Ozzel after Vader gave the order is just that officer respecting the chain of command, not thinking that Ozzel is somehow the guy in charge. And if Ozzel or Piett attacked at Endor before the order was given I'm pretty sure Palpatine would not have been pleased to have been disobeyed.

I'm 70% sure you are trolling, but this needs to be said.

[soob]

Trolling? No, I'm just going by what happens in the movie, whereas your opinion seems to be based on the disney cartoons and comics.

[soob]

No, Ozzel was incompetent. He didn't follow up the lead to the power generator despite it being the best lead the Empire had.

I don't think the movie gives any basis to decide who was right or wrong about the odds of the lead going anywhere, other than Vader turning out to have been right. But you wouldn't expect the movie to show the last 20 times they'd previously rushed off in full force halfway across the galaxy only to find some uncharted settlement or smuggler base. You also didn't see, though I think the crawl suggests it and the next movie confirms, that there were other rebel bases and fleets out there that Vader was ignoring because his real goal wasn't to fight the rebellion but to track down his kid.

When he jumped into the system the Rebels were preparing for evacuation but they only detected the ships and raised the planetary shields as a result.

The Hoth system had a huge number of asteroids in system which made it hard to detect incoming ships. Ozzel first failed to recognise the huge power generator that would be vital for a rebel defence and then alerted the Rebels to the Empire's presence allowing them to raise their defences. A totally worth force choking earned there.

When he said it'd be hard to spot approaching ships because of meteorites, presumably he meant things that could be mistaken for meteor-- i.e., scouts or probes, and he was talking about doing it while trying to remain hidden. If star wars is anything like real life, it's a lot easier to spot things if you're willing to actively look for them. The tradeoff is that you make yourself easier to see-- but it's a tradeoff the rebels surely would have accepted once they knew their location was already compromised and an attack was imminent.

But this whole argument is really academic since we know Vader's plan was never to sneak up to the base and obliterate it from orbit. His sole reason for going there was to catch Luke, which he couldn't accomplish by bombardment.

Fun anecdote. Met Admiral Ozzel once. I was at Salute just after the turn of the millennium and joined in a Star Wars RPG game there. What I hadn't realised was that Michael Sheard was a special guest at the event and mid game he came through the door behind us and asked "am I dead yet?" In his recognisable old schoolteacher voice.

That's cool.

[soob]

youtu.be/-92UVQm6ZQU

Ignore the joke (which is pretty good, actually) and watch Veers after Vader gives him the order. Who's really in charge there?

[Seaward]

Ignore the joke (which is pretty good, actually) and watch Veers after Vader gives him the order. Who's really in charge there?

I'll be honest, I always thought it was a courtesy/formality thing. Even if Veers is looking to Ozzel for orders rather than Vader, it's pretty clear that at this point Ozzel is acting as little more than a mouthpiece. He certainly doesn't look like he's in control. Besides which, Piett certainly seems to prefer Vader's command over Ozzel's.

One other note, if the films are supposed to be sticking to real world military protocol then the Executor is Piett's ship, not Ozzel's. As I understand it, the admiral may command the fleet, but the captain is in command of the ship itself.

[TexasRed]

Soob stop double and triple posting. If you were the last person to post then edit the previous post.

This goes for everyone else as well.

[Jonathan101]

Ignore the joke (which is pretty good, actually) and watch Veers after Vader gives him the order. Who's really in charge there?

I'll be honest, I always thought it was a courtesy/formality thing. Even if Veers is looking to Ozzel for orders rather than Vader, it's pretty clear that at this point Ozzel is acting as little more than a mouthpiece. He certainly doesn't look like he's in control. Besides which, Piett certainly seems to prefer Vader's command over Ozzel's.

One other note, if the films are supposed to be sticking to real world military protocol then the Executor is Piett's ship, not Ozzel's. As I understand it, the admiral may command the fleet, but the captain is in command of the ship itself.

Both Legends and Disney canon establish that it is in fact Vaders own personal ship. So Piett and Ozzel are in a rather unique situation with regards to whose ship it really is, even though Vader outranks them anyway.

[Winter]

In regards to The Last Jedi, I didn't really enjoy it that much. Okay, before anyone says anything let me just say that if you like or even love TLJ that is completely fine, I said a number of times that I like the Prequels despite their flaws and after seeing Chucks' Documentary on George Lucas I have a new found respect for the man and the Prequels, and I was already a defender of Lucas.

But a issue I have with the new Star Wars movies is that, well, the heroes have been winning to much. So far, out of the four films released in the past 4 years the heroes have won every battle and in the only one where they didn't win, they still won. This is especially annoying in TLJ as this is suppose the hero of the story suffers he's/her's greatest defeat but instead Rey Won. She survived her encounter with Snoke, defeated Kylo Ren for a second time, and single handily save the Rebellion at the tale end of the film.

Take this in contrast with Mara Jade in Dark Force Rising, there she began to question her loyalty to the Emperor, nearly lost her second father figure due to her actions, has been forced to work with the man she blames for losing everything she had and was put into a coma while helping make up for her mistake. When you break it down Mara is the hero of The Thrawn Trilogy while Luke works more like her mentor and she's such a awesome character with flaws, fears and her journey is so powerful as it's all about her breaking away from, effectively, an abusive father while excepting people who would see her as a person.

I also felt, and this is just my opinion, that characters, both heroes and villains, were all acting really stupid in order to do things just to make the plot move forward. Holdo not telling anyone her plan for no given reason, Snoke not seeing Ren's betrayal coming and pretty much everything Finn and Rose do. And for me, MAJOR SPOILER ALERT, Luke contemplating killing his nephew in his sleep is the worst moment in Star Wars as it goes against EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT HIM!!! Luke risked his life to try and redeem his father and only tried to kill him after Vader and Palpatine goaded him for at least a hour or two. So Luke considering murdering his own family in his sleep is so out of character and felt so forced to me.

Again, if anyone here likes or loves TLJ that is fine, I am not the judge of what is good or what is bad. Again, I like the Prequels and they are Very flawed films. All I'm saying is that I didn't like certain things about TLJ and I much prefer how Empire and Dark Force Rising handled their respective middle chapters. There it actually felt like our heroes might not win the day and the hero of both stories was, at best, useless and at worst made the villains job easier.

But that's just me and you are free to disagree with me if you so choose.

[GandALF]

Luke contemplating killing his nephew in his sleep is the worst moment in Star Wars as it goes against EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT HIM!!! Luke risked his life to try and redeem his father and only tried to kill him after Vader and Palpatine goaded him for at least a hour or two. So Luke considering murdering his own family in his sleep is so out of character and felt so forced to me.

The entire point of the cave scene in ESB is to show that Luke is capable of being just as evil as Vader. Vader and Palpatine didn't wear him down over an hour or two, he snapped like a twig as soon as Vader mentioned his sister. Him being briefly tempted by fear is entirely in character

[Fixer]

The entire point of the cave scene in ESB is to show that Luke is capable of being just as evil as Vader. Vader and Palpatine didn't wear him down over an hour or two, he snapped like a twig as soon as Vader mentioned his sister. Him being briefly tempted by fear is entirely in character

That's going very far to justify an out of character action there. You could use the same logic to argue Picard would strike young a crewman who annoyed him because he got angry at Wesley once.

Yoda's teachings of the ways of the Jedi are as follows.
How do you know the difference between the light side and the dark side?
When you are calm, at peace. That is the light side.
Anger. Fear. Aggression. They are the dark side.

Luke was warned against taking his weapons into the cave. He ignored this advice. He went into the cave only with the things he took with him. His fear, and his lightsaber.

His failure at the cave was one that demonstrated his lack of control. That by using the dark side, he would become the very thing he sought to destroy.

When he faced Vader later. He showed he had some mastery of his emotions. However he was still greatly outmatched having not completed his training. He still rejected the dark side at his lowest point.

When Luke faced Vader and was tempted for the last time he ultimately rejected the dark side in it's entirety. He saw the glimmer of light in his father when everyone else had given up. It was at this point when he rejected the dark side that was saw "a new hope" become "the return of the Jedi". It was the culmination of his journey. His endless optimism redeeming his father, who everyone else thought was lost.

Which is why the original trilogy endures so well. Star Wars was a special effects extravaganza but the themes and characters behind them endure even when the movies themselves age.

TLJ Spoilers:
This is why Jake Skywalker is such a contradiction. Luke approached Vader on Endor to try and redeem him. The most evil man in the galaxy. Yet, he sees a darkness in his Nephew Ben and considers slaying him. He's not under any pressure here. He's not in a throne room being hunted by the most powerful sith lord in the galaxy while the Rebellion is being destroyed by the Empire. He's at his academy surrounded by friends.

The most hopeful character every gives up. His final act is to tell Ben that there's no hope in redeeming him. He doesn't even pass on his legacy or unique insights through training. He complains until the new lead gets sick of his crap.

The simplest answer is the best here. Same for why Yoda appears as "wacky Yoda testing Luke's patience" instead of his actual personality. Terrible writing. Whatever the motivation behind it may be.