ENT - Bound

[clearspira]

Oh, yeah, THAT subplot...man, Harry Potter has SO many issues when you go back and read it as an adult.

Most of it is "story that takes place in the 1990s when read in 2020 isn't progressive by today's standards" even though the entire series is filled to the brim with progressive messages.

Is it filled to the brim with progressive messages or is it filled to the brim with things that Rowling has tried to re-invent as progressive messages? Please name some because I am genuinely having a hard time thinking of any that are supported by the narrative.

[Worffan101]

Oh, yeah, THAT subplot...man, Harry Potter has SO many issues when you go back and read it as an adult.

Most of it is "story that takes place in the 1990s when read in 2020 isn't progressive by today's standards" even though the entire series is filled to the brim with progressive messages.

Some superficially progressive messaging of the "racism is bad, m'kay" form, but it also has a rather problematic subplot with the house-elves (and yes, I know that they're based off of brownie folklore, but brownie folklore is SUPER classist, too), the way she keeps retroactively trying to make the series more diverse to appease her guilt complex (like trying to retcon Hermione as black despite Hermione being explicitly described as white at several points), et cetera.

IDK. There are better books for children and teenagers, I guess is what I'm saying.

[AlucardNoir]

Oh, yeah, THAT subplot...man, Harry Potter has SO many issues when you go back and read it as an adult.

Most of it is "story that takes place in the 1990s when read in 2020 isn't progressive by today's standards" even though the entire series is filled to the brim with progressive messages.

Is it filled to the brim with progressive messages or is it filled to the brim with things that Rowling has tried to re-invent as progressive messages? Please name some because I am genuinely having a hard time thinking of any that are supported by the narrative.

Beyond things like the anti house elves and goblin racism? how about the fact that the books main villain is a fictional Hitler, that his death eaters are magical nazis and that the book is a fictional fight against fascism? but I guess that's not progressive.

[clearspira]

Oh, yeah, THAT subplot...man, Harry Potter has SO many issues when you go back and read it as an adult.

Most of it is "story that takes place in the 1990s when read in 2020 isn't progressive by today's standards" even though the entire series is filled to the brim with progressive messages.

Is it filled to the brim with progressive messages or is it filled to the brim with things that Rowling has tried to re-invent as progressive messages? Please name some because I am genuinely having a hard time thinking of any that are supported by the narrative.

Beyond things like the anti house elves and goblin racism? how about the fact that the books main villain is a fictional Hitler, that his death eaters are magical nazis and that the book is a fictional fight against fascism? but I guess that's not progressive.

That's what you are going with as your proof? You do realise that having a Hitler stand-in is one of the most worn out and generic villain types in fiction right? Hell, by the exacting description you just used, Star Wars was just as progressive as Harry Potter and that came out 20 years before. Bit late to the party isn't she?

[AlucardNoir]

Oh, yeah, THAT subplot...man, Harry Potter has SO many issues when you go back and read it as an adult.

Most of it is "story that takes place in the 1990s when read in 2020 isn't progressive by today's standards" even though the entire series is filled to the brim with progressive messages.

Is it filled to the brim with progressive messages or is it filled to the brim with things that Rowling has tried to re-invent as progressive messages? Please name some because I am genuinely having a hard time thinking of any that are supported by the narrative.

Beyond things like the anti house elves and goblin racism? how about the fact that the books main villain is a fictional Hitler, that his death eaters are magical nazis and that the book is a fictional fight against fascism? but I guess that's not progressive.

That's what you are going with as your proof? You do realise that having a Hitler stand-in is one of the most worn out and generic villain types in fiction right? Hell, by the exacting description you just used, Star Wars was just as progressive as Harry Potter and that came out 20 years before. Bit late to the party isn't she?

It's a difference of interpretation. Star Wars used Nazi imagery but not really ideology. At least not in the original trilogy. Harry Potter on the other hand actually tackles the ideology. Harry himself is basically a holocaust survivor. More then a few wizards and witches are in the same boat as Harry. They don't just have relatives that died fighting Tom Riddle, they have relatives that were hunted and killed by the death eaters.

Star wars does a far batter job using Nazi imagery but when it comes to ideology it's more miss then hit. The death eaters on the other hand are all about the ideology. To paraphrase one of only two men worse than Hitler: one man's death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic.

While we might think of the Nazi's as stereotypically evil, they weren't, they actually stood for something. The Nazi wanted something, a better words for them and their offspring - and frankly, it's not what they stood for that's offensive but how they tried getting it that is. That's not the case for Star wars' Empire. The empire wants whatever the emperor says it wants and the emperor is stereotypically evil. Tom Riddle wants to be immortal and rule the world. Death eaters like Lucius literally want the Nazi's wanted, just with pure blood wizards in place of Aryans.

Star wars is fighting the evil empire. Harry Potter is fighting slavery and racism while not shying away from showing the reader what motivates those actions. Most wizards can fix a room and move objects with just a flick of their wand yet most also keep house elves as slaves. House elves that even without wands are shown to be around as powerful as wizards if not stronger still. Most wizards are racist towards other inteligent humanoid races like goblins and centaurs while at the same time not agreeing with the racism displayed by pure blood witches and wizards against their own kind. And then there are the "muggles" and both how wizards feel about them and how they feel about "muggle" technology.

I'm not saying Harry potter is as briliant as some people make it sound online but comparing it's treatment of the death eaters with Star Wars and it's empire, especially only the original trilogy is either playing dumb or willingly ignoring the differences to try and win some internet points.

[Worffan101]

To paraphrase one of only two men worse than Hitler: one man's death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic.

Leaving aside the rest of your thoughts, I wasn't aware that Remarque was worse than Hitler. In fact, I thought that Remarque's work was loathed by the Nazis because he was a pacifist and portrayed war as a messy shithole.

[AlucardNoir]

To paraphrase one of only two men worse than Hitler: one man's death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic.

Leaving aside the rest of your thoughts, I wasn't aware that Remarque was worse than Hitler. In fact, I thought that Remarque's work was loathed by the Nazis because he was a pacifist and portrayed war as a messy shithole.

I was paraphrasing a quote often attributed to Stalin. Can't say I'd be surprised if other people would have said the same thing before him. That being said, a summary internet search seems to indicate Remarque's use of the phrase as coming almost a decade after it has been attributed to Stalin by the press: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/21/death-statistic/

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Try telling that to Archduke Ferdinand.

[Percysowner]

Oh, yeah, THAT subplot...man, Harry Potter has SO many issues when you go back and read it as an adult.

Most of it is "story that takes place in the 1990s when read in 2020 isn't progressive by today's standards" even though the entire series is filled to the brim with progressive messages.

Is it filled to the brim with progressive messages or is it filled to the brim with things that Rowling has tried to re-invent as progressive messages? Please name some because I am genuinely having a hard time thinking of any that are supported by the narrative.

Beyond things like the anti house elves and goblin racism? how about the fact that the books main villain is a fictional Hitler, that his death eaters are magical nazis and that the book is a fictional fight against fascism? but I guess that's not progressive.

That's what you are going with as your proof? You do realise that having a Hitler stand-in is one of the most worn out and generic villain types in fiction right? Hell, by the exacting description you just used, Star Wars was just as progressive as Harry Potter and that came out 20 years before. Bit late to the party isn't she?

It's a difference of interpretation. Star Wars used Nazi imagery but not really ideology. At least not in the original trilogy. Harry Potter on the other hand actually tackles the ideology. Harry himself is basically a holocaust survivor. More then a few wizards and witches are in the same boat as Harry. They don't just have relatives that died fighting Tom Riddle, they have relatives that were hunted and killed by the death eaters.

Star wars does a far batter job using Nazi imagery but when it comes to ideology it's more miss then hit. The death eaters on the other hand are all about the ideology. To paraphrase one of only two men worse than Hitler: one man's death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic.

While we might think of the Nazi's as stereotypically evil, they weren't, they actually stood for something. The Nazi wanted something, a better words for them and their offspring - and frankly, it's not what they stood for that's offensive but how they tried getting it that is. That's not the case for Star wars' Empire. The empire wants whatever the emperor says it wants and the emperor is stereotypically evil. Tom Riddle wants to be immortal and rule the world. Death eaters like Lucius literally want the Nazi's wanted, just with pure blood wizards in place of Aryans.

Star wars is fighting the evil empire. Harry Potter is fighting slavery and racism while not shying away from showing the reader what motivates those actions. Most wizards can fix a room and move objects with just a flick of their wand yet most also keep house elves as slaves. House elves that even without wands are shown to be around as powerful as wizards if not stronger still. Most wizards are racist towards other inteligent humanoid races like goblins and centaurs while at the same time not agreeing with the racism displayed by pure blood witches and wizards against their own kind. And then there are the "muggles" and both how wizards feel about them and how they feel about "muggle" technology.

I'm not saying Harry potter is as briliant as some people make it sound online but comparing it's treatment of the death eaters with Star Wars and it's empire, especially only the original trilogy is either playing dumb or willingly ignoring the differences to try and win some internet points.

Well then let's compare it to Star Trek TOS in 1968 where they had a planet with actual Nazi symbolism and ideology, repressing Jewish analogs in the exact same way that was done in Nazi Germany in during WW2. Way to be progressive JKR, reiterating that Nazi propaganda and discrimination are bad 50 YEARS after Star Trek.

Harry Potter is a book that captured the imagination of many people. It is also a world where LGBTQ people do not exist and neither do POCs. It is many things, but it is hardly progressive.

[lightningbarer]

I have to ask how Chuck can go from the idea of women being in control of their sexual appeal and using that to get the things they want from men - to "women are victimised" that's a very special type of doublethink that I've not come across that often.

I mean the entire premise of the Orion Slave Girl is that men are captives of these women and they use their bodies to get things from them, it was spelled out in the Cage ffs!