VOY - Collective

[Freeverse]

Okay, but most sane people will agree that, for instance, lightly smacking your partner on the arm isn’t “abuse”.

It’s not a matter of human durability. Mongul can punch skyscrapers out of existence. Getting punched by him is like having an Abrams fall on you. If you can tank a punch from him, anything a human does to you is an affectionate pat.

It wasn't affectionate, though, and that's what makes the real difference. She was lashing out at him because she was mad, and while it's perfectly valid to be mad at your partner, it's not OK to hit them.

Like, it's played for laughs, so she's not going all out, and ultimately it's a small gesture, but I'm not even going so far as to say it's offensive - just that it's a small part of a troubling pattern, and while it's a minor thing, I'm still gonna file it away in the "bad" category.

[GreyICE]

It wasn't affectionate, though, and that's what makes the real difference. She was lashing out at him because she was mad, and while it's perfectly valid to be mad at your partner, it's not OK to hit them.

Like, it's played for laughs, so she's not going all out, and ultimately it's a small gesture, but I'm not even going so far as to say it's offensive - just that it's a small part of a troubling pattern, and while it's a minor thing, I'm still gonna file it away in the "bad" category.

Oh I'd agree, my annoyance at that point was more at the complete inconsistency of even his power set. I'd given up on those characters having a believable relationship around issue 51 (oddly the one where she was introduced, fancy that). The problem with violence is the risk of physical injury (and why BDSM spends so much time on how to do it safely). If you're literally fucking invincible, it becomes much less problematic. If you're dating Superman, it could be funny to do the Looney Toons gag and hit him over the head with a frying pan - what are you going to do, hurt him?

Alex had to get very angry, because that shows she's offended at the suggestion she's a slut. No, I don't fucking know why that's a big deal, but I'm telling you 90% of the girlfriends introduced in that era had something in the first five issues or so where they proved even if they liked sex, and even if they were wearing skimpy clothing much of the time, they definitely weren't a slut who enjoyed showing off, or having unusual sex, or having more than one partner, or being confident in their sexuality.

Comics in general, and 90s comics in particular spend most of their lives in a wing of the Madonna/Whore complex.

EDIT: This guy:



You survived a punch from that guy. You better not even notice if Mike Tyson punches you.

[Freeverse]

It wasn't affectionate, though, and that's what makes the real difference. She was lashing out at him because she was mad, and while it's perfectly valid to be mad at your partner, it's not OK to hit them.

Like, it's played for laughs, so she's not going all out, and ultimately it's a small gesture, but I'm not even going so far as to say it's offensive - just that it's a small part of a troubling pattern, and while it's a minor thing, I'm still gonna file it away in the "bad" category.

Oh I'd agree, my annoyance at that point was more at the complete inconsistency of even his power set. I'd given up on those characters having a believable relationship around issue 51 (oddly the one where she was introduced, fancy that). The problem with violence is the risk of physical injury (and why BDSM spends so much time on how to do it safely). If you're literally fucking invincible, it becomes much less problematic. If you're dating Superman, it could be funny to do the Looney Toons gag and hit him over the head with a frying pan - what are you going to do, hurt him?

Alex had to get very angry, because that shows she's offended at the suggestion she's a slut. No, I don't fucking know why that's a big deal, but I'm telling you 90% of the girlfriends introduced in that era had something in the first five issues or so where they proved even if they liked sex, and even if they were wearing skimpy clothing much of the time, they definitely weren't a slut who enjoyed showing off, or having unusual sex, or having more than one partner, or being confident in their sexuality.

Comics in general, and 90s comics in particular spend most of their lives in a wing of the Madonna/Whore complex.

I think I was reading X-Factor at the time.... It was the team with Cannonball...? Anyway, I think team books were able to avoid that problem, but Spider-Man had it bad. I quit Spider-Man comics because Black Cat was a trashfire that even as a child I thought was the worst thing that ever happened to Peter. Like, she betrays him in the PS4 game, but at least the writers knew it was an awful thing to do and that she wasn't heroic. In the 90s comics she breaks into their apartment, chokes Mary Jane, threatens her, then leaves, and it's supposed to be all "Aw, she still cares about Peter!"

barf.

[GreyICE]

I think I was reading X-Factor at the time.... It was the team with Cannonball...? Anyway, I think team books were able to avoid that problem, but Spider-Man had it bad. I quit Spider-Man comics because Black Cat was a trashfire that even as a child I thought was the worst thing that ever happened to Peter. Like, she betrays him in the PS4 game, but at least the writers knew it was an awful thing to do and that she wasn't heroic. In the 90s comics she breaks into their apartment, chokes Mary Jane, threatens her, then leaves, and it's supposed to be all "Aw, she still cares about Peter!"

barf.

Black Cat... oh my god, don't remind me. Comics normalize the weirdest sort of stalking and abusive relationships.

I'll hand this to modern comics - if that happened in 2020 your expected reaction would be "that woman is completely insane." It hasn't hit the level of healthy relationships yet, but by 90s standards we've come very far.

[CharlesPhipps]

Black Cat is awesome whenever she's not being written as a monster to justify Peter and Mary Jane.

[GreyICE]

Black Cat is awesome whenever she's not being written as a monster to justify Peter and Mary Jane.

DC called, Catwoman wants her character back.

[CharlesPhipps]

Black Cat is awesome whenever she's not being written as a monster to justify Peter and Mary Jane.

DC called, Catwoman wants her character back.

Bah, Picard dated Catwoman too. Beautiful Female thief love interests are a trope now.

[Freeverse]

Black Cat is awesome whenever she's not being written as a monster to justify Peter and Mary Jane.

DC called, Catwoman wants her character back.

Bah, Picard dated Catwoman too. Beautiful Female thief love interests are a trope now.

Honestly, criticizing a character in a Marvel/DC comic because they're too similar to a character from the other side is such a non-argument at this point. Grundy and Hulk, Aquaman and Namor, The Squadron Supreme and The Justice League, Green Lantern and Quasar, Bumblebee and The Wasp, Wolverine and Lobo, Ant-Man and The Atom, Superman and Hyperion and Gladiator and The Sentry and Blue Marvel and Samaritan and Supreme and Superior and.... well, you get the idea.

If you think this makes them bad characters I would challenge you to look up who came first, because it's not always going to be who you suspect. Also, The Watchmen was made up entirely of Charlton comics characters with new costumes, so I find the idea that it's a problem kind of easy to disregard.

Black Cat sucks because she's an awful person who gets way too much sympathy, and when she's actually written well, it's proven time and time again that she's not good for Peter. I honestly am not all that invested in him being with MJ, I'm fine with Gwen, or even Liz Allen. Hell, I'll take Betty Brant if you give her some personality. The only other thing I can say is...

Bye, Felicia.

[GreyICE]

In this case Catwoman by like 4 decades. And yes, they have similar heroes and villains at times, but a female thief in a black leather cat costume with a strange romantic will they/won't they thing going on with the hero?

As you note, it's not like she has any actual personality either.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Grundy doesn't have an alter ego. Grundy do smash though.