Who is the worst Captain?

[thisithis]

The Ori were a good concept IMO, I just think they fell victim to a combo of series fatigue in general, and too many changes to the series in too short a time. The team got new leads, and the classic leads either went away or changing into other roles that didn't have equivalent appeal. The Egyptian theme the series had been rooted in (which had already been more and more diluted by "gods" from other pantheons) got abruptly swapped out whole hog for a monotheistic Arthurian theme. And all that was happening at a point where the series had been on the air for so long it was starting to feel tired regardless. Whether the Ori were good or not, the series was petering out at that point, so any changes/ideas that popped around that time were ripe for blame confusion.

Though for the record, connecting the Ori to Arthurian stuff in an attempt to keep the mythology connection theme going was complete rubbish, IMO. Felt cheap and cargo-cult-ish, and only served to cheese-ify what were good and scary villains.

I only watched the first couple episodes of Universe, so I don't know how it went overall, but I remember at the time it felt in a lot of ways like a transparent and shallow attempt to copycat BSG, and that turned me off (both on principle, and because the stuff it was copying was the stuff I didn't like about BSG anyway). I never watched it enough to have strong feelings about it, it just lost/killed my interest very quickly, and I never saw/heard any reason to go back.

At lest the Ori story line got resolved in the made for tv films.

As for Universe, there is so many low points to even name. Like the character Nicholas Rush trying to take command of Destiny. Or the Commander Everett Young being an idiot. (PS I have nothing against the actors, just the characters. Mostly because there only doing this for a paycheck.) But watching the team of scientist thinking that they can over take the well train Marines. Oh, there where scientist, air Force, and Marines suck on the ship. The worst was watching the guys on the ship trade bodies on Earth, and have sex in those bodies with complete strangers. They used those Communication stones found in StarGate SG1. But the worst character was Chloe Armstrong who did nothing but complain how worthless she was. And she was. The worst part is where she is walking down a hallways in Destiny when a war is going on outside, and the roof next her collapses in a shape of a perfect circle with a light emanating from the roof, And dose the dumbass do. She walks right up to it and look straight into the light. ANd guess what, she is taken by the aliens on the other end of the light.

[MaxWylde]

If we're not just talking Star Trek here, but everything Chuck has reviewed, might I suggest....Anakin Skywalker. I have a lot of misgivings about Hera in Rebels, but she doesn't hold a candle to how bad Anakin is. I'd really, really hate to be under his command, whether I was a clone or a Jedi. At least Hera would likely listen to any objections you might have over her plans.

We all know what a psychopath Anakin is, and maybe that's kind of what you need for a commander in the Clone Wars, someone like William T. Sherman who can face the arithmetic of dealing with troop losses, but Anakin has absolutely no compunctions about losing his troops. They may be clones, but they're alive and kicking, and I'm sure they'd like to live. Anakin goes into every situation hard-charging and if his troops can't keep up with this space-wizard, he doesn't care. He doesn't set his guys up to deliver maximum effect from areas of protection, but rather uses them like cannon fodder so he can have less to personally deal with in the situation. There were many times throughout the Clone Wars series where I saw ample opportunities for his men to get behind cover and use indirect fire on the battle droids, but never once is this ever considered by Anakin (or Obi-Wan or Yoda, for that matter). It's as though Anakin personally knows he's got a good layer of Plot Armour, as if he knows he's going to live through anything the opposition has in store, whether it's droids, bugs, General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, or even the mighty Count Dooku.

To be fair, okay, Anakin was never trained in small-unit tactics or how to command troops, but if so, he shouldn't be in command of anyone or anything. Why does being a Jedi automatically confer command status to a combat force? I mean, they just give Ahsoka Tanu a Commander rank just because she's a Jedi Padawan. Just because they can do magical things doesn't mean they know what the heck they're doing, and obviously they don't, given their horrendous losses. At least Obi-Wan, in Revenge of the Sith, personally went ahead (recklessly) to distract the droids and Grievous so that his troops could assault unabated (kind of surprising, really).

If I knew I was being led by this monster of a man, I'd likely arrange for some artillery to drop a little close to my position in the hope that Anakin either dies or is injured enough to take him out of the action.

[ScreamingDoom]

Why does being a Jedi automatically confer command status to a combat force? I mean, they just give Ahsoka Tanu a Commander rank just because she's a Jedi Padawan. Just because they can do magical things doesn't mean they know what the heck they're doing, and obviously they don't, given their horrendous losses.

I think this is an artefact of just how stupid the Galactic Republic is set up.

They don't have a standing military. From what we see, it looks like every individual member planet has their own peace-keeping force that operates completely independently of oversight or C&C of the Galactic Senate.

The only real enforcement arm that the Republic had were the Jedi. So, when a big civil war came around, the Republic was lucky they had an army of trained troops in the clones, but they didn't have any skilled commanders. So the Jedi were best-fitted into the role as the closest thing the Republic had to actual military officers answerable to the Senate as a whole instead of the individual member worlds.

Late in the series (when Palpatine is solidifying his control), there are calls to get the Jedi off the front lines and put actual military officers in command.

[MaxWylde]

They don't have a standing military. From what we see, it looks like every individual member planet has their own peace-keeping force that operates completely independently of oversight or C&C of the Galactic Senate.

Good Gravy! I knew the Republic was stupid, but I had no idea they were dumber than the United Federation of Planets. I didn't think that was possible.

So, okay, the way they enforce Republic Law is through the Jedi, and they've been doing this for a thousand years. The ramifications of this are huge. It means that the Republic is truly not ruled by the Senate in the first place, but by the Jedi. They just mutually both play along in the facade. The Jedi allow laws and the mundane banal things to be handled by the Senate, and they enforce their will. It may be benevolent, the Jedi seem not to care for their own aggrandizement, but it makes the Muggles in the Senate rather feckless. No wonder Palpatine was able to manipulate them so easily.

[ScreamingDoom]

Good Gravy! I knew the Republic was stupid, but I had no idea they were dumber than the United Federation of Planets. I didn't think that was possible.

In the Galactic Republic's defense, it is somewhat similiar to how the United States was originally set up.

The Federal government was never supposed to have a standing military; that was the function of the state militias. Of course, command and control of the state militias would be given over to the Federal government if the Senate voted to go to war, but there was no overarching Federal army.

This was done to prevent the Federal government from crushing individual states under a boot-heel of oppression. It's why there's the whole 'for the purpose of a well-regulated militia' bit is in the Second Amendment; it's there to make sure the Federal government couldn't take away the states' ability to enforce law or, if need be, fight the Federal government.

Of course, both that particular part of the Amendment and the no-Fed-Army rule proved to be impractical in the course of history; in the former case because there were a lot of territories which did not come under the auspices of any one state (and the individuals within were far from any other form of law enforcement), so the only practical solution was to allow individuals to own firearms. In the latter case, western expansion and various wars led to the slow eroding of the no-Fed-Army rule. Again, it simply wasn't practical to have a bunch of little armies controlled by the states occasionally get together under Federal control.

Still, the Galactic Republic goes about it in the most extreme, stupid way. As far as we can see, there is no legal machinery for the Galactic Senate to take control of individual member planets' militaries in the event of war with the Republic as a whole. That's why the Republic is so reliant on the clone army; no one else is willing to pony up the men and material and there isn't any way for the Senate to form a new military under its direct control.

So, okay, the way they enforce Republic Law is through the Jedi, and they've been doing this for a thousand years. The ramifications of this are huge. It means that the Republic is truly not ruled by the Senate in the first place, but by the Jedi. They just mutually both play along in the facade. The Jedi allow laws and the mundane banal things to be handled by the Senate, and they enforce their will. It may be benevolent, the Jedi seem not to care for their own aggrandizement, but it makes the Muggles in the Senate rather feckless.

That's... a really good point, actually. I never thought about it that way, but you're right; without some means to enforce its will over the member planets, the Senate is basically useless. It really is the Jedi who are in de-facto control, even if they leave the day-to-day operation to the bureaucracy.

I forget which episode of the Clone Wars, but at one point a character makes mention that a particular space battle hasn't been seen since the days of the Old Republic. Which seems to imply that before the Republic we see there, there was an even older Republic which disintegrated at some point only to reform into the Republic in the show.

If one takes KoTOR as canon, then that Republic likely did have a centralized military. Maybe that's why the Republic is so wishy-washy on having a standing military; an older Republic did and it was blamed for the downfall, rightly or wrongly. So, a cultural hiccup ends up causing Palpatine's rise to power.

No wonder Palpatine was able to manipulate them so easily.

Yeah. Everyone in the Galactic Senate and Jedi seem really credulous.

[MaxWylde]

Still, the Galactic Republic goes about it in the most extreme, stupid way. As far as we can see, there is no legal machinery for the Galactic Senate to take control of individual member planets' militaries in the event of war with the Republic as a whole. That's why the Republic is so reliant on the clone army; no one else is willing to pony up the men and material and there isn't any way for the Senate to form a new military under its direct control.

To be clear, did they have a Navy? Because, if they didn't, it makes Valorum's "decision" to use Jedi in the Phantom Menace a bit tilted. A Republic Navy probably would've ended the entire blockade just by their very arrival. Even if it's just one ship, if the Trade Federation fires on it, they've just declared war on the entire Republic, and this would be a lot harder to cover up than destroying a ship in your hanger bay and murdering the Jedi and putting their bodies in the meat wagon. I always presumed that the Republic had a Navy, at least, and Valorum decided to use Jedi in order to defuse the situation without embarrassment and scandal to the Trade Federation. Because if they send the Navy, that's kind of public, the kind of thing that the press likes to have fun with, and could lead to arrests, indictments, and arraignments. A Naval fleet showing up over Naboo probably would've done more to quell that situation than Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, or even Yoda, ever could.

But if they have no Navy, sending the Jedi seems really kind of dark. They're supposed to be heroes, and the Nemoidians knew they'd "force" a settlement through a Jedi Mind Trick (and might find out that they're working with a Sith Lord). Using the Jedi Mind Trick could be used for good, but when you're using that to enforce the law, you're taking away people's free will in a way no normal policeman or military service could ever do. What's worse, can this be used as a form of propaganda, a form of mind control on a mass scale? Maybe they don't need to, but they go about the galaxy doing mind tricks on certain political, business, and other leaders to enforce their will, all in the name of Peace? Seems to me Sidious was a bit more honest about his plans to rule the galaxy than the Jedi were.

[ScreamingDoom]

To be clear, did they have a Navy?

I'm not sure, to be honest. It's definitely a bit fuzzy. Everyone seems to speak as if there is no Galactic Navy, but at the same token in the second prequel there is that scene of all those proto-Star Destroyers being loaded up. I suppose they could've been built as part and parcel of the Clone Army (and that might make sense, since otherwise the clones wouldn't be trained to operate Republic military equipment expertly), but at the same token there's Admiral Monocle Popper in the Clone Wars cartoon. He seems to be a pretty seasoned space ship captain, and others we see who are definitely not clones are similarly old void salts.

But then again, they might just be volunteers from the planetary navies that make up the Republic.

So I'd lean to there being a standard Republic Navy, just not an army, but that is just a gut feeling. One could argue quite easily that there wasn't any military to speak of.

Because, if they didn't, it makes Valorum's "decision" to use Jedi in the Phantom Menace a bit tilted. A Republic Navy probably would've ended the entire blockade just by their very arrival. Even if it's just one ship, if the Trade Federation fires on it, they've just declared war on the entire Republic, and this would be a lot harder to cover up than destroying a ship in your hanger bay and murdering the Jedi and putting their bodies in the meat wagon. I always presumed that the Republic had a Navy, at least, and Valorum decided to use Jedi in order to defuse the situation without embarrassment and scandal to the Trade Federation. Because if they send the Navy, that's kind of public, the kind of thing that the press likes to have fun with, and could lead to arrests, indictments, and arraignments. A Naval fleet showing up over Naboo probably would've done more to quell that situation than Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, or even Yoda, ever could.

All that is true, but I suspect that another major reason that the Republic didn't send a navy (assuming they did have one) was because doing so required permission from the Senate. With Palpatine working behind the scenes and the Trade Federation sure to block any attempt to send the regular navy out to investigate, that's an act that is unlikely to get passed in the time frame needed. Which might be another indication of the internal structural problems with the Republic; there's no way for the chief executive officer (Chancellor Valorum in this case) to order a fleet to go look into this without express approval from the Senate. And this is an internal matter for the Senate! Both the Trade Federation and Naboo are member worlds! Imagine how difficult it must be to actually attempt military action with a different government entirely.

The Jedi, being outside the control of the Senate, can basically do anything they damn well please, making them perfect for such a time-sensitive mission.

But if they have no Navy, sending the Jedi seems really kind of dark. They're supposed to be heroes, and the Nemoidians knew they'd "force" a settlement through a Jedi Mind Trick (and might find out that they're working with a Sith Lord). Using the Jedi Mind Trick could be used for good, but when you're using that to enforce the law, you're taking away people's free will in a way no normal policeman or military service could ever do. What's worse, can this be used as a form of propaganda, a form of mind control on a mass scale? Maybe they don't need to, but they go about the galaxy doing mind tricks on certain political, business, and other leaders to enforce their will, all in the name of Peace? Seems to me Sidious was a bit more honest about his plans to rule the galaxy than the Jedi were.

Qui-gon sure seemed to be pretty fast-and-loose with the Mind Trick. He tried to cheat Anakin's owner/boss out of a ship part by giving him worthless currency using it, after all. Obi-won seemed to take after him as well; there's that one guy at the bar who wants to sell death-sticks (though why the hell he'd attempt that to an obvious Jedi of all people is another matter) and Kenobi just rewires his brain on the fly to go home and rethink his life. Technically, he didn't force the guy to give up drug dealing, but it's still a pretty sketchy use of mind control powers. And then there's the straight-up torture that Anakin, Kenobi, and Windu use on the bounty hunter in the Clone Wars. Yeah, the guy's a villain who is kidnapping force-sensitive children, but geez. Akosha's expression in the scene pretty much says it all.

Not even Voyager constantly monitoring the brainwaves of the crew is quite so Orwellian.

[MaxWylde]

but at the same token there's Admiral Monocle Popper in the Clone Wars cartoon

Yeah, he didn't look like the Boba Fett clone to me, unless there was another clone production line filling different officer roles for fleet operations. Heh, if that were the case, can you imagine what a logistics nightmare that would be? That in order to field a functioning ship, you have to have just the right clones to fill the specific roles necessary for that ship to function? I shudder to think of it. Even with the Republic/Empire's incredibly vast resources, that's a bit of a stretch of the imagination, but given the stupidity of the Republic, I wouldn't put it past them.

All that is true, but I suspect that another major reason that the Republic didn't send a navy (assuming they did have one) was because doing so required permission from the Senate.

Which kind of also makes the role of a chief executive in the form of a chancellor somewhat superfluous if he required permission to deploy the fleet as he needs to in order to ensure the safety and security of the Republic. Even President George Washington didn't need permission from Congress to send troops to quell the Whiskey Rebellion. I can see maybe if he might need permission to wage war on the Trade Federation, but if all he needed to do was to deploy a fleet to protect shipping to Naboo through the TF blockade, it seems counter-productive to leave that up to a vote. In the US Constitution, the Congress can censure the President and even impeach him if they felt he was going too far, and can stop funding to that operation. However, it seems that they need all kinds of permission from the Senate in the Republic to wipe their noses, so I don't put it past them for that.

Qui-gon sure seemed to be pretty fast-and-loose with the Mind Trick. He tried to cheat Anakin's owner/boss out of a ship part by giving him worthless currency using it, after all. Obi-won seemed to take after him as well; there's that one guy at the bar who wants to sell death-sticks (though why the hell he'd attempt that to an obvious Jedi of all people is another matter) and Kenobi just rewires his brain on the fly to go home and rethink his life. Technically, he didn't force the guy to give up drug dealing, but it's still a pretty sketchy use of mind control powers. And then there's the straight-up torture that Anakin, Kenobi, and Windu use on the bounty hunter in the Clone Wars. Yeah, the guy's a villain who is kidnapping force-sensitive children, but geez. Akosha's expression in the scene pretty much says it all.

What's especially horrifying about this is that if I were a head of state of a member world of the Republic, I'd have serious doubts about my own judgment knowing the Jedi are out there doing this kind of crap. I'd keep a private diary and record all my positions and why I have them in the event I have a radical change of mind all of the sudden, especially if there's no good reason (and keep a droid on hand or several, to record everything I'm doing privately and publicly, for my own personal information).

There was a Dark Horse Star Wars comic that had Yoda and Mace Windu sort of re-enacting the Pulp Fiction scene with Vincent Vega and Jules Pitt, and in the discussion Yoda mind-tricks a poor waitress to comp their meals, and when Mace decries this, Yoda says he's protecting his wallet from high prices. Granted, this is not a canon event, but I just wouldn't put it past Jedi to do something like this, or worse:

OBI-WAN: [using a Mind Trick] You will let me sleep with your wife.

ME: I will let you sleep with my wife.

OBI-WAN: And you are happy to let me.

ME: And I am happy to let you.

OBI-WAN: And you'll take care of my bastard. I'll be back for him soon.

ME: And I'll be glad to take care of your bastard, and you'll be back for him soon.

I admit that's self-indulgent; I couldn't resist. It's stuff like this that I can see why ordinary people in the Star Wars universe see no distinction from the Jedi or the Sith. At least the Sith are more honest about it, literally wearing their feelings on their sleeves (or eyes, as it were).

[TrueMetis]

With the EU defunct it's not really relevant but before it is my understanding that the Republic had a security force which acted much like the RCMP, being police officers that acted both locally and on the federal level. They'd be one step above planetary police forces and one step below the Jedi.

It also had a Judicial force which was the remnants of the military which was disbanded a thousand years ago in the reforms that also put the Jedi under senate control. This force wasn't particularly well maintained and planetary security forces took over much of their duties. When the clone wars broke out this Juridical force's navy became the Republic Navy again and it's ground forces were absorbed into the GAR. In both cases though military tradition were taken from local security forces rather than the Judicial force. So regular humans like Admiral monocle popper would have been former Juridical force officers transferred to the Republic Navy.

The question then becomes did the Republic just not have enough officers to put in charge of the GAR and so turned to the Jedi instead? (honestly fairly likely with that sort of expansion but you'd expect them to put a lot of work into fixing that, if Canada can go from the Navy of ~2000 with 150 officers at the start of WW2 to the third largest naval fleet in the world by the end of it the Republic should be able to train enough officers for their navy and army) Or did Palpatine do this deliberately to cripple the GAR's effectiveness and get Jedi killed (also fairly likely)

[PerrySimm]

With the EU defunct it's not really relevant

Ah yes, what a legendary decision. Is JJ Abrams the worst captain of a storytelling universe?