Sfdebris.net

Riedquat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:05 pm

Dragon Ball Fan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:12 am but we're getting off topic again, my point still stands because I also brought up how Chuck praised the portrayal of Davros, the guy who admitted he'd destroy the universe just because he could and actually tried to do so later on and then some.

Davros might be an unrepentent monster but he's not completely one dimensional, moustache-twirling evil for evil's sake villain (AFAIK from Chuck's reviews anyway, my Dr Who knowledge is mostly down to them and the occasional childhood memory).

He has a the skills enough to be impressive and he is scheming enough you never know what he does.

Riedquat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:05 pm

Dragon Ball Fan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:12 am but we're getting off topic again, my point still stands because I also brought up how Chuck praised the portrayal of Davros, the guy who admitted he'd destroy the universe just because he could and actually tried to do so later on and then some.

Davros might be an unrepentent monster but he's not completely one dimensional, moustache-twirling evil for evil's sake villain (AFAIK from Chuck's reviews anyway, my Dr Who knowledge is mostly down to them and the occasional childhood memory).

still a complete and utter monster, which is my point.

He's a megalomaniac, he seeks power over all and his ends are the only ends. This is evil, but not the evil of chaos.

Dragon Ball Fan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:31 am

Mecha82 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:35 am There are more than one way villain can be great and deserve praise from audience members. Just because some one else's view about that doesn't match your's doesn't mean that there isn't anything praise worthy to that person.

I'm not arguing that nor that a villain has to be a complete monster necessarily to be good, just the seeming unspoken implication of Chuck that pure evil and unrepentantly monstrous villains are objectively bad.

Surely they are objectively bad by definition?

Or do you mean bad as a story telling device?

Complex Villains like Tywin Llanister are more entertaining than Forces like Sauron and Jason. I agree, BUT this does not prove that all stories with complex villains are better than all stories with Force villains.

If you have the talent to write stories with complex villains, go for it. If your skill is writing a rag-tag band of misfits, then focus the story on how your misfits react to the Force and leave the villain as a brooding presence in the background. Likewise if your talent lies in writing campy villains like Ming the Merciless, then remember to include a scene where Ming dies and is turned to dust and THEN there is a gust of wind, only Ming's ring remains. THE END???

I meant bad as a storytelling device. a more complex villain can still be pure evil. I can again go to the Dragon Ball franchise for that, Zamasu. he really believed he was doing good but he was too much of a hypocrite, narcissist and sadist to appreciate that.

Kodos the Executioner or Cruella de Vil? That might be an unfair comparison... ok, it's unfair. And I'm mostly motivated by thinking of Shatner vs. Cruella and wondering if the stage would even be standing afterwards, but, still, I think there is a place for both the mustache twirlers and those who do vile things in the name of what they think a greater cause, while feeling the pain of every life they take.

For me, anyway.

and back to Dukat and the episode of Star Trek "Waltz", I want to respect Chuck's opinion on Dukat but I don't understand it because the episode is smacking you in the face with how all of Duckat's so called redeeming qualities were all lies and he is an unrepentant monster and always was one.

Maybe because he so good at being bad. You can believe he is a good person from time to time.

Thebestoftherest wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:19 am Maybe because he so good at being bad. You can believe he is a good person from time to time.

maybe for the first few seasons but not sure how anyone could still hold to that after "Waltz".

After Waltz it is even easier to say he wasn't evil. He was already having a mental health episode by the start of Waltz, Sisko goaded him into a full on psychotic break. From a psychiatric point of view, that makes him more innocent after that. He's ill, and expressing multiple symptoms. You should be nicer to Dukat after Waltz.