Dragon Age Origin-Heart of Stone

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

So, SFDebris's reviews were so good, (and the game has delicious bisexuality, which is nice) I decided to buy it and play it myself. The thing is though...well, I don't know where this "Belen is the progressive candidate" stuff is coming from. I tried really hard to find enough reasons to, as a grey warden, support ol' prince murderpants, but the best I could get was some town crier shouting about how he married a casteless. Even when I meet him in person, he just says "the blight is the priority, by any means necessary" but doesn't say anything about his politics. I switched over to Harrowmont just because he has SOME stance on the issues whereas I couldn't find a stone-crushed thing about Belen.

[GandALF]

Bhelen wants to reform the caste system but is completely self-interested, so he can't be relied on to aid the Grey Wardens.

Harrowmont is much more honourable but because of that he is also a conservative traditionalist who will keep the unfair caste system in place as he doesn't believe he has the right to overturn ancient traditions, but him being a stickler for the rules means he can be relied on to help the Grey Wardens.

In the end they both do send aid. However Bhelen ends up abolishing the assembly to cut out his conservative rivals and rules as an arguably tyrannical absolute monarch while Harrowmont preserves the Dwarven constitution along with the nasty caste system.

[Enterprising]

Bhelen wants to reform the caste system but is completely self-interested, so he can't be relied on to aid the Grey Wardens.

Harrowmont is much more honourable but because of that he is also a conservative traditionalist who will keep the unfair caste system in place as he doesn't believe he has the right to overturn ancient traditions, but him being a stickler for the rules means he can be relied on to help the Grey Wardens.

In the end they both do send aid. However Bhelen ends up abolishing the assembly to cut out his conservative rivals and rules as an arguably tyrannical absolute monarch while Harrowmont preserves the Dwarven constitution along with the nasty caste system.

On top of that though Bhelen makes Dwarven society the most open to the outside world than it's ever been, while Harrowmont makes them even more closed off and therefore far less likely to help out when the next world threatening situation comes around.

The story is best done if you have a Dwarven Origin story, particularly a noble one as it opens up a few more doors and explains a bit more.

[CharlesPhipps]

Bhelen is aware of enlightened self-interest.

The Dwarves need boots on the ground and the Warrior Caste is utterly fucked facing the Darkspawn so allowing Casteless to fight means they are doubling if not tripling their manpower for fighting.

It also gives him a military force which considers him their messiah.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

The thing is, I keep hearing Bhelen wants to change the caste system from players, but I don't see much evidence of that in the game. What situations in the game do you learn of his reform plans? I couldn't even get him to mention castes by talking directly to him.

[Enterprising]

The thing is, I keep hearing Bhelen wants to change the caste system from players, but I don't see much evidence of that in the game. What situations in the game do you learn of his reform plans? I couldn't even get him to mention castes by talking directly to him.

I think there was one mention of it, but it's been such a long time since I done a DA:O run I can't be in anyway specific. In the end though, it doesn't really matter how much or little mention there is. I think the point by the writers of this part of story was about you as the hero making a decision that will have long term (and unknown) ramifications. It was also a demonstration that the seemly noble candidate to help (Harrowmont), wasn't necessarily the "good" or obvious choice he was painted initially to be. He was polite and Honorable sure, but turned out to be a fanatical traditionalist, that leads to isolation. Bhelen is an ass and frantic about holding on to his power, but at least uses that power to drive his society to more progressive and modern ways.

One achieves good by bad means, the other achieves bad by good means, that's the paradox and as a result one is no more or less "right" than the other. (IMO)

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Yeah, I get that dichotomy. My problem is the game not providing my character (rather than me as a player) enough infomration to support that dichotomy and make the choice feel real. I was desperate to find some way to justify supporting Bhelen, to the point where I completed quests for him, and I couldn't get even a hint of what his stated goals were beyond "become king." =/ Do you understand my frustration? It changes from a "good man, bad leader vs bad man good leader" to a "better the devil you know" choice.

I want to know where anything in the game indicates that Bhelen has progressive policies so I can make a decision with in-character knowledge instead of metagaming.

[CharlesPhipps]

The majority of information you'll get about them is from the drunk nobleman in Tapsters.

[Independent George]

I noticed the same thing - unless you're playing as a dwarf, you don't actually learn anything about either candidate until after you've already committed to them, and even then, you are never explicitly told much about what either man will do as king. Most of what you get beforehand is inferred, and even then it's not conclusive.

[RobbyB1982]

That's a case where you get a lot more details if you play a dwarf. (which I did my very first time through.) Both in their origin story and in later stuff. If you don't play a dwarf, it's a blank slate. And if you play a dwarf commoner, you're basically railroaded into supporting Bhelen because your sister hooks up with him and him reforming the caste system is good for you personally.


The game does that though, there's story stuff you just don't get as much of depending on your starting group.

For instance, Rendon Howe is a major villain in the human noble storyline (and voiced by Tim Curry!) and his son is one of the playable characters in the post-game DLC who has a lot to say about him... but if you take any of the other 5 origins you basically just meet him once near the end of the game for a few lines and it seems like a huge waste of a voice actor talent.

Or if you play a mage you get a lot more insight on the fade dreamwalking stuff, and elves get better response from other elves, and so on.

I want to know where anything in the game indicates that Bhelen has progressive policies so I can make a decision with in-character knowledge instead of metagaming.

In the course of doing quests for either guy, if you switch at all, you end up discovering both sides are actually pretty awful and ordering some terrible things. Neither one of them is good.