Star Trek [2009]

[bronnt]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/film11.php

I recently rewatched Wrath of Khan (actually watched it a couple of times) and it just makes me sad that we never got to see THAT version of Kirk's backstory in the reboot-verse.

Kirk always had a bit of arrogance about him, but he wasn't a brazen jackass. In WoK, it's pointed out that the took the Kobayashi Maru 3 different times. There's a lot made of that test and the way it tells something about Kirk's character. I would have loved to see him take the Kobayashi Maru the first time and bang his head against the fact that it's unwinnable because, as Shatner said, "I don't believe in a no-win scenario."

Instead we get Chris Pine trying to show off how awesome he is by enabling "God Mode" (as Chuck put it). It would have been much better to take the time to show him battling and beating his head against a problem because he hates to lose. When Kirk delivered that line while eating an apple in Wrath of Khan, it was a bit of Kirk's arrogance showing. In that case, though, he'd earned it by, at least briefly, outwitting Khan and his superior intellect and also getting one past Saavik.

[Madner Kami]

Shatner-Kirk is a man who earns his victories through outthinking and outmaneuvering his opposition. Pine-Kirk "earns" his victories by hail maries and writer-fiat. It's easy to see, why the Shatner-Kirk is the superior verison in every concievable way.

[bronnt]

Shatner-Kirk is a man who earns his victories through outthinking and outmaneuvering his opposition. Pine-Kirk "earns" his victories by hail maries and writer-fiat. It's easy to see, why the Shatner-Kirk is the superior verison in every concievable way.

It's a shame since it's a completely a reflection on the shallow outlook of the writing and directorial focus. You get great, quiet character scenes like when Bones visit Kirk's apartment in Wrath of Khan, or when Spock and Valeris spoke about change in "The Undiscovered Country." Sure, that's cherry-picking the two (in my opinion) best-written Star Trek films. But I see nothing but wasted opportunities in Abrams' films, like wasting some time so Pine and the audience can leer at Zoe Saldana changing. When we get character moments, it's delivered with shouting, like Kirk shouting at Spock in ST: 2009 or shouting at him again in Into Darkness, or Uhura and Spock yelling at each other.

It's just the missed opportunities that get to me. I get that it's an alternate universe and the characters aren't supposed to be exactly the same, I just wish the changes didn't trend toward making them less compelling.

[excalibur]

My head canon is that Discovery is actually based in this reboot universe because everyone is an asshole in that movie as well, so it fits with the show

[Sir Will]

The third movie had some nice moments and call backs that really fit, in the beginning. Way better than the second that ripped whole scenes from better movies and did them worse.

[TrueMetis]

Shatner-Kirk is a man who earns his victories through outthinking and outmaneuvering his opposition. Pine-Kirk "earns" his victories by hail maries and writer-fiat. It's easy to see, why the Shatner-Kirk is the superior verison in every concievable way.

The really depressing thing to me is that the reason Pine-Kirk is like that is because that's how a lot of people see Shatner-Kirk.

[GandALF]

The big theme in 2009 is that Kirk had grown up to be very different without the influence of his father. By defeating Nero he gets some closure and is able to grow closer to being ShatKirk which he kind of does by Beyond.

Also, Kirk is 50 in WoK, dead father or not that's still going to make them very different.

[Deledrius]

The third movie had some nice moments and call backs that really fit, in the beginning. Way better than the second that ripped whole scenes from better movies and did them worse.

Beyond, while not perfect, really felt like it was trying. Definitely more than the first two. And since apparently the audience had given up by then, no one saw it and the studio took home the wrong message.

Shatner-Kirk is a man who earns his victories through outthinking and outmaneuvering his opposition. Pine-Kirk "earns" his victories by hail maries and writer-fiat. It's easy to see, why the Shatner-Kirk is the superior verison in every concievable way.

The really depressing thing to me is that the reason Pine-Kirk is like that is because that's how a lot of people see Shatner-Kirk.

Yup. The Kirk Drift is a huge problem for the franchise as a whole, IMO. The fact that the movies actually make it "canon" only worsens this issue.

The big theme in 2009 is that Kirk had grown up to be very different without the influence of his father. By defeating Nero he gets some closure and is able to grow closer to being ShatKirk which he kind of does by Beyond.

The films don't really do anything with it (until Beyond), so to me it feels more like an excuse than an actual theme or motivation. Pike kinda mentions it, sorta, in the first one, but that's it. The scenes they filmed which would have made it explicitly the intent never made it into the final cut. Anyway, I'm not sure what JJ's obsession with father-issues really adds to the story or the character. It only detracts by making Kirk shallower and less likable. It wasn't until Beyond that the new writing team decided to pick up on it and at least use it to flesh out Kirk's psyche a bit, and give us some moments of reflection with Bones.

[bronnt]

The big theme in 2009 is that Kirk had grown up to be very different without the influence of his father. By defeating Nero he gets some closure and is able to grow closer to being ShatKirk which he kind of does by Beyond.

The films don't really do anything with it (until Beyond), so to me it feels more like an excuse than an actual theme or motivation. Pike kinda mentions it, sorta, in the first one, but that's it. The scenes they filmed which would have made it explicitly the intent never made it into the final cut. Anyway, I'm not sure what JJ's obsession with father-issues really adds to the story or the character. It only detracts by making Kirk shallower and less likable. It wasn't until Beyond that the new writing team decided to pick up on it and at least use it to flesh out Kirk's psyche a bit, and give us some moments of reflection with Bones.

Right? I'd be fine with Kirk acting different and having issues from his absent father if you could find a way to bring it into focus. The problem is that they're banking on people being interested in Kirk because he's Kirk, even though he's different and clearly a jackass. That arrogance he's often displaying doesn't even seem to have a basis in reality: he doesn't seem exceptionally competent. It's like knowing he's the main character and will succeed on that basis alone, rather than on his demonstrated ability. If this Kirk is truly different, give me reasons to like THIS Kirk that don't rely so heavily on his name.

Heck, Top Gun did a better issue of providing a (likeable) cocky main character with father issues. He's shown as having extreme competence right from the start, and his cocky actions are immediately followed by him demonstrating concern for a fellow pilot. When he does something arrogant, he is immediately called out and faces severe consequences for it. And people call him out for his daddy issues as well, telling him that he has to freaking deal with it. Then something happens that actually shatters all of that confidence, making it nearly impossible for him to regain his form as a pilot and giving him an obstacle to overcome. It's a simple action movie but it feels smarter written than Abrams' Star Trek movies.

[Archanubis]

The third movie had some nice moments and call backs that really fit, in the beginning. Way better than the second that ripped whole scenes from better movies and did them worse.

Beyond, while not perfect, really felt like it was trying. Definitely more than the first two. And since apparently the audience had given up by then, no one saw it and the studio took home the wrong message.

Doesn't help the marketing for the film was utter crap.