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My first thought when I saw this episode was literally "What the hell?" I noticed a few continuity snarls that Chuck didn't address in his video, so was curious what the opinion was on these topics.

Now he does point out how absurd it is for 2 borg to come back to life after being frozen for so long. (Though we don't actually see the borg self destruct in all circumstances.). My little issue is this. We have seen borg crash land on a few occasions. I can remember I Borg, Survival Instinct, Unity, and now Regeneration. In the previous 3 cases, the borg that crashed don't seem to be linked to the collective still, and start to regain their individuality. The two borg-sicles? These two drones are still somehow connected, despite the nearest borg being in the delta quadrant? How the heck?

Also, why did the two drones(that shouldn't be alive or linked) leave Earth? Their goal in First Contact was to assimilate the planet. Why don't they assimilate everyone there, and then go to someplace like Starfleet HQ and launch an attack and try and assimilate everything there? There are far more targets, and the resources on Earth would probably be of better use in contacting the rest of the collective (which they even say the signal will take 200 years so again how are they connected?).

I do agree they screwed up the borg's opening hail. It would have been so easy to avoid also. Just have the ship damaged in some way and there is static over the parts where they say 'we are the borg' and that would be that.

Also, side note. What happened to Borg ranged weaponry? We didn't see them in First Contact, or in Voyager I think aside from one scene I remember in Scorpion where Seven points her arm at Chakotay menacingly.

What do you guys think?

(The last topic I saw on this particular episode was over a year old, I didn't want to drudge it up. So I figured I'd make a topic. If I should have posted in the old topic I apologize, I just don't remember seeing anything about old forum posts though I could be mistaken. )

Weeeell, just throwing out a few ideas:

-As we've also seen in those crashes, a lot of how the Borg act after they crashed relies upon when they were assimilated. People like Hugh and Seven had no knowledge of their lives beforehand - especially in Hugh's case he may have been a baby when assimilated and known nothing of life outside of the collective. In those cases, they just fall back on the Borg "Prime Directives" (AKA Robocop's version of them and not Trek's) - assimilate, continue on pre-programmed objectives, and attempt to reestablish contact with the Collective for updated orders and rescue.

-While a Sphere isn't exactly a warship, in 2063 the human race was devastated to the point where they wouldn't be able to put up a defense against even a smaller Borg vessel. By the 22nd century, though, humanity now has more advanced weapons and tech - plus well-organized. While normally primitive compared to Borg weaponry, it was still pretty dang effective. The only reason the assimilated science ship was able to put up a fight against Enterprise was because the tech on board Enterprise screwed with their power and weapons. Once they were restored, they were still more than a match for them. By that logic, a handful of assimilated drones would not be enough to assimilate the entire planet - they would simply be outgunned and outnumbered - especially when they can only improve the 22nd century tech so much. The logical alternative is the same as it was in First Contact - contact the Collective of the Past and get them here earlier with all the resources they would need.

-The Borg have only really had ranged weaponry in one story - Descent, and that was a group of Borg that were not part of the formal Collective and under Lore's influence. The Borg seem to prefer the "hands-on" touch of assimilation and throwing bodies at their opponents in order to assimilate. After all, their opponents can always replenish their numbers so there's no need to worry about wasting them unless it's in amounts that would be catastrophic (in the thousands and millions, hence the stupidity of the Queen in Unimatrix Zero). Ranged weaponry is just never their style. The aiming at Chakotay thing in Scorpion could be attributed to a different sort of gesture and not necessarily "I'm going to shoot you."

Ah, Descent. Apart from "Gambit" possibly the worst of the TNG two-parters.

Blame Voyager, or First Contact, but really, Descent is where the Borg started tumbling downhill... breaking free from the Collective only to become goons for TNG's most insufferable recurring villain was never a good look.

What's worse is that, with the exception of Scorpion, for the remainder of canon, The Borg are just a bunch of mooks working for someone else. No longer that original super-smart race of adaptible technophiles, now they're shambling zombies with laser pointer fingers, without the slightest motivation outside of Lore or The Queen.

So in this respect, "Regenerations" is actually kind of refreshing - The Borg, even just a couple Borg, are an actual threat once again.

That's the thing though. The Borg are a threat to this century, since humans at this point have no idea what they're dealing with. If they launched a strike on starfleet command I'm sure the casualties would be huge. Considering how fast the borg adapted to the weaponry of the time when they boarded Enterprise, and unless they have a bunch of projectile weapons laying around I'm not sure what they could do once adaptation occurs.

Also Linkara, while that may be true that they don't know their history possibly, it doesn't change the fact that they should not have been acting like linked drones at the time of their awakening. Well they shouldn't have woken up at all actually, but that's besides the point. While it's true we don't know exactly how the borg hive mind functions, it's safe to assume that they can't keep hold of a drone 70,000 light years away without some kind of proxy, IE the borg ship itself. So the point still stands.

One thing I will give about the attack on Starfleet HQ that might pose a problem. The borg don't tend to use tactics per se, except human wave tactics. Though I still believe them having no ranged weaponry is a mistake. If Starfleet has stun settings, you would think the borg would want to use something like that. It's much easier to assimilate someone who isn't resisting anymore, IE being stunned. Some people have said that this may interfere with the assimilation process. I don't know, but if the borg were serious they would easily find a way to overcome that limitation. I think it's probably just a writing decision to make them seem more like zombies.

As for Seven's gesture in Scorpion, personally I do think she was aiming a weapon at him. Her fist is balled, she's not pointing at him or gesturing in any other way, and of course they just came in with big ol phaser rifles looking apprehensive. Just my thoughts though. Enjoying the discussion!

PerrySimm wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 4:39 am..."Regenerations" is actually kind of refreshing - The Borg, even just a couple Borg, are an actual threat once again.

I think that what makes Regeneration a really good episode, not only is the link to TNG, but how the small number of Borg create so many serious problems. They assimilate a number of beings, take a Warp 2 ship and upgrade it to be faster than the NX-01 using parts of contemporary ships (and, nanomachines, son!), and if left unchecked either would've returned to Borg space with advanced Borg technology that would've led to the early assimilation of the Federation, or could've just decided, 'F@#$ it, let's assimilate the Federation now.'

The Borg are not to be messed with in the TNG era; in the Enterprise era, the only thing saving them is the fact that there's few Borg with a crappy ship.

I guess I'm not terribly impressed with the episode. For one, like with the Ferengi, I'm sorry, but just not mentioning the name to the characters doesn't preserve continuity. The encounter would still be a matter of history, as would the sensor readings they got from the Borg and their tech, as would Phlox's study of and cure for nanoprobes. Which is another aspect I'm incredulous about - you're telling me one doctor by himself was able to do what all of Starfleet Medical was unable to do two centuries later? Another aspect of this episode that just doesn't make any sense is that the science ship the Borg end up taking and modifying even has a warp drive. Why would they even take such a ship for a mission that didn't even leave their planet?

My take on this episode is that I see a lot of lame excuses to make it possible, and that all it really accomplishes is a further nerfing of the Borg in order to make it possible for the NX-01 to beat them.

We saw Borg used ranged weaponry in Q Who?, against the Enterprise D's shields and warp drive. The NX-01 doesn't have shields, but taking it out of warp would have been helpful (We are the Borg. *pew* Buh-byeee). The beam that took out Starfleet ships at what seemed like decent range at Wolf-359 in Emissary might not be able to work at FTL (like TNG phasers supposedly cannot). Maybe they didn't have some exotic material available that they need to create those weapons. Or maybe those drones didn't have enough of the blueprints for them in their brains.

As for the Borg not being smarter (attack several major population centers to make more drones, with orders to spread from city to city as fast as possible; Starfleet is unlikely to nuke New York, Beijing, Tokyo, Moscow, etc., before drones are all over the world and ready to hit Starfleet HQ)... My headcanon has been that the Borg aren't trying to assimilate the Federation yet; they want to trigger it into making better technology first. In canon, though, the Borg have never been that bright. Send one cube and it fails, and Starfleet is left better-prepared for next time? Wait a while and then send another cube. Not that I like this answer. The dreaded enemy shouldn't be idiots unless you have a good reason; the Goa'uld in Stargate had reasons for their blind spots, and even that was dicey at times.

Darth Wedgius I was talking about ground-based ranged weaponry. As for the continuity snarls, it's possible that starfleet highly classified this intel and during the transition from Earth Starfleet to the UFP, the data was lost or forgotten about until the 24th century. As for the nanoprobe cure, it's specifically stated that the treatment would kill anyone else, but Phlox's physiology is what keeps him alive. It's still stupid, but it's an explanation as to why its not the medical database.

The problem with Phlox getting injected is, he's obviously hearing the collective. Surely he would have heard the word 'borg' in there somewhere, so them not IDing themselves was pointless anyway in my opinion.

One argument I've heard put around is that the reason the Borg don't use 'tactics' per se, is that they don't consider anyone they're assimilating to be that big of a deal. They see us as a resource, not an enemy, considering how they simply throw drone after drone at targets because they have oh so many more. I don't agree with that. If you encounter an enemy who has proven resourceful enough to best you on more than one occassion, it's a good idea to invest in some tactical thinking. With all the people they've assimilated you would think the borg would have the best combat tactics in the galaxy. Another reason is possibly arrogance I guess? I mean they consider themselves to be perfect after all.

If they're that perfect they should visit the cloud district more often. (Kudos if you get the reference)

HalcyonDays wrote: ↑Wed May 30, 2018 12:07 am Darth Wedgius I was talking about ground-based ranged weaponry.

I stand corrected. I thought you meant in the stern chase between the NX-01 and the Borgified ship.

The Borg's behaviour stands and falls with the question on whether there's a distinct central intelligence or if it is a true hivemind. If the later, then repeating the same mistakes except with more personell isn't out of question, possibly quite the contrary. The hiveminds we know of, aren't very bright on a particular level. What makes these hivemind smarter than the individual is aggregate behaviour and, almost literally, swarm-tactics. For example, ant-streets aren't a result of targeted behaviour, it's a result of lots of ants using the particular way and leaving their pheromones, so more ants follow a naturally good route, leaving more pheromones, enticing more ants to use the same road and so on and on.