Star Trek (DIS): Despite Yourself

[bronnt]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/c110.php

I haven't been watching Discovery, so I'm wondering how well the episode (or episodes, since it seems to be at least 2 episodes) was received. Are people really that enthused by the Mirror Universe? The original episode was great, and there were maybe 2 good episodes involving the mirror universe in DS9, but mostly they've been silly "turn your brain off" entertainment. Unfortunately, this episode references "In a Mirror, Darkly," which is one of the worst cases of that.

Was anyone really clamoring for a mirror universe episode?

[Veggietrekker]

My issue with prequels in general is that they remove the revealing aspects of what came later and in this case, shockingly, Enterprise did it better. You may be wondering why? Well if you'll remember Enterprise had no connection with the Prime Universe and was completely a standalone story being stupid yet harmless. This reveal in Discovery takes Kirk's superior story and weakens it substantially for me as it seems Kirk is less familiar with history instead of suddenly discovering a great and terrible place.

[turbo_sailor67]

Lol "being stupid yet harmless" I dunno, is Star Trek being "stupid" is ever really "harmless" to the franchise?

"Was any really clamoring for a mirror universe episode?" Who knows! I thought DS9 went overkill on the mirror universe in the same way that Voyager went overkill with the borg.

Initially I had hopes for Discovery when I heard Bryan Fuller was to be involved that seemed like a good sign - until they fired him and it's Alex Kurtzman now who has the incredible track record of success of the Tom Cruise Mummy "I made the movie for audiences not critics", Transformers, Amazing Spider-man 2, Enders Game, Cowboys and Aliens and Into Darkness.

Yes, with Stellar hits like that, this is EXACTLY who we want to do Star Trek! I mean is this some kind of "The Producers" gimmick? When I heard they were doing mirror universe and the P.O.W. guy Captain Lorca met was really a Klingon all along - why, just why? How? When? On second thought, I don't even care.

Although it is kinda funny they bring up the Doctor is going to have someone else look at the Mushroom Kingdom guy because of the natural conflict of interest for being objective; but they're allowed to serve together being married. That's only funny because it makes sense, but the fact that they're serving together on the same ship doesn't.

In the real world, you don't have married couples who are on active duty serving at the same command, neither do you have siblings stationed together either for that matter because of 1. the appropriateness of the matter (there's enough hooking up on ships as it is leading to possible appearances of favoritism) and 2. because we as a society do not want a situation where both/all of the offspring for parents to be KIA and leave them childless.

Bleh, when Voyager was so bad, it was so ridiculous and laughable, Enterprise was mostly dull or insulting (Dear Doctor, anyone?), with a few aspects and highlights that were good. Discovery to me is so bad it's worse. I'm not an Orville viewer, but I can't blame my friends for switching over.

[CrypticMirror]

Ugh the mirror universe. It had one great story (Spock's Beard), one fun DS9 jaunt (Crossover), and one fun but hammy Enterprise story. The rest of it is garbage. I don't know why fanficcers (and this episode, not to mention the STD overall, is pure generic fanfic) seem to love it so.

[MrL1992]

I find this to he one of the more effective portrayals of the mirror in terms how unpleasant a place it is. The agony booths are presented in a far scarier fashion.

I know that killing off the Doctor was received by some as a little Tasha Yar-ish abd it seems the show is responding to that criticism next season.

One of my biggest disappointments in S1 was not seeing the real 'Captain Killy'.

[nebagram]

I utterly loathe the mirror universe so when it came back in Discovery my heart just sank. DS9 turned it into over-the-top camp ridiculousness and ended with Rom, of all people, overthrowing the whole damn thing. Kinda makes it hard to take any of its portrayal in Discovery seriously at all. If they'd wanted an alternate reality, why not have a truly menacing one where the Federation is a brutal dictatorship, but a more subtle one, like one where Section 31 have secretly taken over behind the scenes or something, 'disappearing' people instead of 'the agony booth'? No, wait, I know the answer to this- and it's 'member when Spock had a beard?'

[CharlesPhipps]

I utterly loathe the mirror universe so when it came back in Discovery my heart just sank. DS9 turned it into over-the-top camp ridiculousness and ended with Rom, of all people, overthrowing the whole damn thing. Kinda makes it hard to take any of its portrayal in Discovery seriously at all. If they'd wanted an alternate reality, why not have a truly menacing one where the Federation is a brutal dictatorship, but a more subtle one, like one where Section 31 have secretly taken over behind the scenes or something, 'disappearing' people instead of 'the agony booth'? No, wait, I know the answer to this- and it's 'member when Spock had a beard?'

Isn't that the Federation itself in DS9?

[SuccubusYuri]

I can see the appeal of wanting to redeem the Mirror Universe. To present it as a somewhat more complex society than we are accustomed to, more in line with the original than the later, "evil is really, really dumb" incarnations. And, at least as far as this episode goes, it works pretty well. It remains recognizable but also revives that threatening atmosphere.

Of course then, you're kind of flying in the face of that canon, so it comes out as a lose/lose to the outside because it's either "oh god why the Mirror Universe again?" or "this isn't the REAL Mirror Universe! Why not make a new one?!"

(Spoliers) The fact that MU officers are much better at stealth, as opposed to "LLLLLLLLLLLLET ME GO" allows me to nod quietly and let the show tell its story.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Star Trek does Mirror Universe episodes in three ways-

1. A MU episode can be a really fun, one-off "What if" story. Mirror, Mirror and In a Mirror Darkly are two examples of that, although I think the latter is a tad overrated by virtue of it actually being fun unlike so of Enterprise.

2. An MU episode can be a once-a-season chance for the writers to let off some steam and do some crazy stuff. That's the DS9 episodes, and while I get it I can't say that I think most of them are actually very good episodes by DS9 standards.

3. MU episodes can be turned into a major storyline a handful of episodes into your very first season when creatively bankrupt writers can't figure out a way to tell a meaningful story with real consequences to an ensemble of characters that the audience actually cares about. I'll let everyone guess which episodes this applies to.

[Durandal_1707]

My issue with prequels in general is that they remove the revealing aspects of what came later and in this case, shockingly, Enterprise did it better. You may be wondering why? Well if you'll remember Enterprise had no connection with the Prime Universe and was completely a standalone story being stupid yet harmless. This reveal in Discovery takes Kirk's superior story and weakens it substantially for me as it seems Kirk is less familiar with history instead of suddenly discovering a great and terrible place.

What? You mean to imply that after the Federation barely avoided destruction due in part to a collaboration with an evil overlord from the Mirror Universe, involving a genocidal attempt to destroy the Klingon homeworld, all made possible by a doomed ship that hasn't actually set the whole thing in motion by getting lost yet, that they wouldn't want this information made public? It'd never happen. I call shenanigans!