Sfdebris.net

https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t176.php
compared with VOY Ashes to Ashes
https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v938.php
on the you must stay with your own front.

Like Chuck, I was pleasantly surprised at the ending: Jono goes back to his adopted father rather than the usual humans are awesome message. Chuck says this episode breaks the usual stay with your own message. I think it reinforces that message.

Here's me, happy ending, hurrah, but two things still bug me: Jono never contacted Grandma again and Picard's speech A crime was committed today. Jono, go visit Grandma, bring Dad along, show her you have a happy loving relationship. Crime??? What crime??? Both sides acted in Jono's best interests. One side was ignorant about Jono's best interests and eventually learnt the facts of the case. Where's the crime?

But it all fits stay with your own: Admiral, the child has gone native, he is dead to you and mourning the dead is forbidden in the Fed. It was a crime. This child has gone native, rescuing him was a breach of the Prime Directive.

Picard was a useless Dad. You don't understand my music. Picard did understand that the whole point of Jono's music is to irritate the Gr'upps.

I've always felt they copped out a bit in the resolution by keeping things too tidy. The Talarians weren't exactly good guys-the way Jono ended up with them was by the Talarians invading a peaceful Federation colony, killing everyone (including his parents) and then kidnapping him.

Even if he was treated well, which seems to be the case here, they still utterly destroyed his life and the only education he's gotten is the one they've given him, which might be filled with propaganda. Chuck dismisses that as "brainwashing," but this is an impressionable kid. By exposing Jono to something else, Picard was only giving him more information to make a decision about where he wanted to belong.

The fact that this led Jono to lash out violently, attempting to MURDER someone who just wanted to help him, is perhaps an indication that Jono's education has not done him a great service. Normally this would be none of their business (They don't care that Talarian children might be mistreated), but this is a child who was abducted and has family elsewhere who might also have an interest in the child's welfare.

On the other hand, giving him back to the Talarians got him off Picard's ship the fastest after he tried to stab him, that is what I call a decision-critical factor.

Artabax wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:29 pm https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t176.php
compared with VOY Ashes to Ashes
https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v938.php
on the you must stay with your own front.

Like Chuck, I was pleasantly surprised at the ending: Jono goes back to his adopted father rather than the usual humans are awesome message. Chuck says this episode breaks the usual stay with your own message. I think it reinforces that message.

Here's me, happy ending, hurrah, but two things still bug me: Jono never contacted Grandma again and Picard's speech A crime was committed today. Jono, go visit Grandma, bring Dad along, show her you have a happy loving relationship. Crime??? What crime??? Both sides acted in Jono's best interests. One side was ignorant about Jono's best interests and eventually learnt the facts of the case. Where's the crime?

But it all fits stay with your own: Admiral, the child has gone native, he is dead to you and mourning the dead is forbidden in the Fed. It was a crime. This child has gone native, rescuing him was a breach of the Prime Directive.

Picard was a useless Dad. You don't understand my music. Picard did understand that the whole point of Jono's music is to irritate the Gr'upps.

The crime was the perpetual assumption that the grown ups, and I think more importantly the vanilla values of the Federation, knew best. NO ONE for even a second wondered whether Jono would be better off as he is, it was just ''you are human, deal with it.'' Not even Worf had any compassion for what Jono may be feeling (and like Chuck points out, really should have been the father figure here instead of Picard).

And as an aside, I know a guy who was adopted as a boy and refused any attempt by his birth parents to contact him. Why? Because they were strangers. Nobodies. He may have come from his sperm and her egg but that is where the relationship ended. His foster parents meant more to him than them. Or in other words, I can understand why Jono did not give a hoot about what granny wanted.

Deep Space Nine handled this very differently.

I think also that Picard handled it badly but that was because the alienness warped it. If a bunch of Taliban killed a pair of doctors, took their son, and raised him to be a child soldier then you bet your ass that we'd try to get him back for deprogramming.

Let's not forget it was a war, and they were hitting, as far as I can tell, a legit military target that probably had a civilian population. It's not the first time Starfleet has done something as monumentally stupid as kept civilians on or near their military facilities and ships with the stubborn denial, "We're not a military organization!" One could consider this humanitarian aid, and in fact, it was obvious he cared for Jono. It was an alien custom. He could have very easily killed him, though Picard was right to claim he should have sent him back. It's a very complex situation, and it's TNG's usual lack of thought when discussing that which I think upsets most people. Imagine if this had been a whole episode. Just consider it. Similar to Chuck's hypothetical "how would I do it" scenario for "The Quality of Life." The show begins with a boy being brought before a Federation arbiter. Endar enters, as does Picard, and Jono, as well as the admiral grandmother. And they reveal that the boy had stabbed Picard. End teaser. Doesn't that just hook your interest. Wow, why did this boy stab Picard? What's going on here? I gotta hang around and see what happened after the intro!

I was the one who asked for this episode, BTW.

I always felt it did deal with an interesting issue. Which was where the Federation wasn't presented as an ideal and was distinctly off-putting for everyone involved. It is very much in the "Western privilege makes a lot of cultural assumptions."

I just felt the premise didn't work very well. It'd have been better if they hadn't been the aggressors but had just found the kid after some sort of raid (but not them).

Awesome sauce.

I see what you mean.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:26 am Deep Space Nine handled this very differently.

I think also that Picard handled it badly but that was because the alienness warped it. If a bunch of Taliban killed a pair of doctors, took their son, and raised him to be a child soldier then you bet your ass that we'd try to get him back for deprogramming.

I'm sorry but that is an incredibly flawed analogy. A child soldier is an inanimate tool as far as his masters are concerned. You point him at someone, they die, he dies, you train someone else up. There is no feeling involved for the well-being of the child short of whatever investment you have put into his training.

Captain Endar on the other hand clearly loves Jono with all of his heart. He has raised him as a son not as a weapon. So much so that he was willing to die to protect him. We can argue whether Jono is brainwashed or not, but the fact is that he has every reason to love and respect Endar regardless and every reason not to trust the Federation when they come along calling the only father he has ever known a child abuser. And I think the mere fact that Endar did take Jono and raise him with love as opposed to just letting him die speaks volumes about the man.

Should he have handed Jono back to the Feds? Maybe. But did he abuse or brainwash Jono? I see little evidence of it. And it never was proven that those old injuries were abuse and not ''boys in our warrior culture will be boys'' as Endar claims.

Adopting the child of people you have killed makes me inclined to view them poorly rather than positively.