VOY - Retrospect

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v885.php

Not really sure where to post this, so thought I'd try here.

[Sir Will]

You done fucked up Doctor.

[bronnt]

There's a lot of good stuff in this episode, actually.

1) Continuity. Stuff that happened in the previous two episodes is shown to matter at the start of this episode-Seven is still on restricted duty because she's defied orders.

2) The characterization of the Doctor. I actually like how they showed how his preconceived notions were driving him to a conclusion rather than actual evidence. I also like that that his eagerness to help probably created a lot of problems, proving that good intentions are not enough.

3) They actually tackled something still controversial at the time, which was the idea of recovered memories. Of course they were debunked at the time, but there were still plenty of people who bought into the idea that there are repressed memories of trauma that can be recovered-they showed up all over tv shows in the 80s and 90s. The validity of recovered memories has been even more shredded in the years since this episode, showing the writers were on the right side of science for this one.

That said, the rapey overtones kind of hurt. The construction of a strawman society where "any accusation is permanently destructive" sets things up to create an environment where it suddenly becomes controversial to even investigate Seven's claim. The problem should have come in when they started drawing actual conclusions with no (or at most poor) evidence, not at the point of investigating.

[clearspira]

Interesting how ideology and agenda influences how you watch a work. Either this is an analogy for not believing rape victims or every negative stigma of MeToo there is. I have no opinion myself as I am taking the third option: bad writing based on dodgy science. 3/10

[Strejdaking]

Look, here's my thing with the episode: At the end, Janeway says they "all bear responsibility for Kovin's death" and well, do they? Yes, Doctor certainly was overzealous and Chakotay assumed he proved his guilt just by running away-but neither of them were heading the investigation, Tuvok was and he remained objective from the beginning to the end. According to the guy, the local authorities automatically side with the alien accusers, but Janeway only called them in after he refused to let them see his stuff without them, so she had no choice if the investigation was to continue.

So, is Janeway and by extension the episode saying they shouldn't have investigated him at all?

Note that Kovin's alleged crime wasn't just violating Seven but stealing their (Borg) technology (which makes the whole analogy kinda flawed from the get go).

[bronnt]

Look, here's my thing with the episode: At the end, Janeway says they "all bear responsibility for Kovin's death" and well, do they? Yes, Doctor certainly was overzealous and Chakotay assumed he proved his guilt just by running away-but neither of them were heading the investigation, Tuvok was and he remained objective from the beginning to the end. According to the guy, the local authorities automatically side with the alien accusers, but Janeway only called them in after he refused to let them see his stuff without them, so she had no choice if the investigation was to continue.

Yeah, that's basically what I was saying too. They create this strawman society where the accusation itself is damning.

It's perhaps understandable that he doesn't want the people he's been trading with to suddenly start rooting about his lab. He's been selling the results of his research, after all, so just letting people in to look at all of his property and perhaps start seizing it to study will impose a burden on him. But what the characters supposed to do? "Eh, it's too much trouble to even get evidence. Get over it, Seven."

The actual investigation stuff was fine with me-we see the Doctor in particular drawing too many conclusions based on his pre-conceived notions. You could have had the whole crew engage in that-their faith in the Seven and the Doctor being so great that they interpret evidence in the most damning light, only to later realize that their biases are getting in the way of objectivity.

[pilight]

Calling it a strawman society is missing the real world context the episode came out in. There had been a string of high profile "trial by media" cases in which innocent people had their lives, businesses, and reputations destroyed by false accusations (Richard Jewell, Yoshiyuki Kōno, Virginia McMartin, etc.). The episode only exaggerated that slightly to create this world.

[PerrySimm]

Well, when you have unenjoyable episodes like this on the plate, one needs to find some alternative path to extract entertainment value. As it's Groundhog Day, let's take a look at the recurring themes:

The Doctor gets a heaping helping of angst in Act V (Heroes and Demons, Real Life, Latent Image, etc)

The episode rummages around inside Seven's brain (The Raven, The Voyager Conspiracy, Unimatrix Zero, ...)

Tuvok conducts "his own" investigation alongside alien cops (Ex Post Facto, Random Thoughts, ...)

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well Tuvac wasn't exclusively handling the investigation, the doctor was doing the forensic analysis, and that was the pivotal blunder. I do think you guys are correct in that rallying behind seven doesn't mean that investigating was bad, but Janeway allowed the doctor to do both the therapy and analysis. The therapy didn't account for the memory to be compiled and false, then misinformation on nano probes led to false conclusions. I think the former more makes Janeway liable, then the fact that that directly led to hasty motivations to find justice for Seven makes the situation more severe, in which case the false nano-probe analysis can be seen as derivative of the righteous investigation.

This leads nicely into Janeway's conception of guilt. The Borg weren't righteously assimilating races. They didn't do it because they got ahead of themselves with their beliefs. Doing so goes hypothetically beyond protocol, and The Borg and Seven espouse protocol. And so does Starfleet and its officers.

[Darth Wedgius]

I liked the episode a lot better than SF Debris did. it showed our protagonists messing up, believably IMHO, and owning up to it. I've never heard the "don't believe rape alleged victims" angle until now, but it seems ridiculous. Surely the lesson would be "follow due process."

Edit: At least next week's might be non-controversial. "Patterns of Force?" Oh...