In hindsight, I think Bariel was a bit of a mixed bag for the show. On one hand he was the lynchpin for a lot of Bajoran political episodes and his death would gradually begin the shift away from that focus, to the point that in the latter half of the series, Bajor's prominence was far more based around Sisko than anything else. Its a shame because there was still fertile ground of this world coming into its own as power in the backdrop of the Dominion Cold War.
On the other hand, Philip Anglim never really stood out as the character. While he managed better chemistry with Nana Visitor than the actor playing Shakaar, against a passionate temperament like Kira his "serene bordering on asleep" presence came across as even more low energy, and after the nuanced performance from someone like Li Nalas, it couldn't help but seem a bit lacking.
I suspect some of the Kira/Odo shippers came along just out of a desire to give Nerys a romantic partner with an actual strong personality.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 12:43 pm
by FaxModem1
The main problem with Bareil is that it's a bit hard to pull off spiritual without coming off as a fanatic zealot, being utterly dour, or coming off as that annoying hippie. Note how Mirror Bareil is much more entertaining due to the thief personality with something to hide, and he brings personality to that role. This Bareil comes off as on the edge of sleepiness.
In contrast, think how Frank Oz brings spirituality to Yoda. He's humorous when he wants to be, serious when teaching, and says a lot with a little. He's also very emotive with his hand gestures and face, even as a puppet. It's sad that a puppet can pull off being more wise and spiritual than Bareil can.
Or how Virginia Hey brings enlightened compassion to Zhaan on Farscape. Zhaan is very spiritual, but also has varied interests in science, and does have a bit of a temper when people fail to meet her expectations, due to her past experiences.
Note Zhaan's righteous passion when she was a murderer, and her acceptance of her past and her pleading for understanding to John in the present.
This episode's major sin is coming off as Duet, only not as good, and that's the problem. It's just not as good, and our main character is a walking piece of furniture. He's a very attractive piece of furniture, but he's still a piece of furniture. And while I always enjoy a nice set of abs, it doesn't make up for his wooden performance.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:18 pm
by Jonathan101
Two things about what Chuck said near the end:
1) It's pronounced Jimmy Sa-ville, not Sav-ille- that just bugged me.
2) I think comparing what the Kai did to what Saville or Cosby did is way out of line- she did a terrible thing to prevent an even more terrible thing and it cost her dearly, whereas those guys were just sexual predators, Saville possibly being the worst sexual predator in British history, and those two exploited their reputations for personal gain whereas the Kai just made a hard choice.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:42 pm
by Steve
I think the comparison is more on the effect it would have, not the act committed. Most Bajorans are unlikely to accept the "hard choice" element. Given the raw wound that the Occupation left on them as a society and a culture Opaka's actions would feel like a hideous violation, not a horrible sacrifice to save thousands of innocent people. It would taint everything Kai Opaka stood for. Just as those performers, once respected and beloved, have seen everything they've done irrevocably tainted by their crimes.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 3:16 pm
by Jonathan101
Steve wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2019 2:42 pm
I think the comparison is more on the effect it would have, not the act committed. Most Bajorans are unlikely to accept the "hard choice" element. Given the raw wound that the Occupation left on them as a society and a culture Opaka's actions would feel like a hideous violation, not a horrible sacrifice to save thousands of innocent people. It would taint everything Kai Opaka stood for. Just as those performers, once respected and beloved, have seen everything they've done irrevocably tainted by their crimes.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the Bajoran people would be more open to seeing what Kai Opaka did as a necessary evil or a difficult choice than they would a Bajoran entertainer who visited children' hospitals and molested mentally unfit little girls for his own pleasure, which is the kind of things Saville did. The former would divide people, the latter shouldn't divide anyone.
I know what Chuck was going for, but that's a really awkward comparison. I can't think of any real-world comparisons to what she did off the top of my head, but she should have been compared to famous religious or political figures who made hard choices in the face of oppression, not entertaining personalities who turned out to be total assholes.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 4:05 pm
by Admiral X
You guys seem to be viewing what he said through some kind of weird funhouse mirror. He isn't comparing their actions, just illustrating how the legacy of someone can be easily destroyed.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 4:11 pm
by Jonathan101
Admiral X wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2019 4:05 pm
You guys seem to be viewing what he said through some kind of weird funhouse mirror. He isn't comparing their actions, just illustrating how the legacy of someone can be easily destroyed.
I'm the only one objecting.
And I'm objecting to the idea that they even have comparable legacies in the first place, not just to the idea that their legacies were in comparable danger (though I object to that also).
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 5:42 pm
by Rocketboy1313
You know, there is a lot of room to create more and more lore for the Bajoran religion.
We see numerous clerics of various looks and station, we see several rituals and holidays, and references to the pre-occupation caste system, but we don't entirely see how it all holds together.
When you worship time traveling/timeless aliens I have to wonder how a lot of this started and congealed.
Was the caste thing a pre-prophets social structure that just hung around?
Why would timeless aliens have specific dates or annual events of significance?
Are holidays celebrations of historical events that got tied into the religion?
How exactly does the hierarchy of clerics work?
It seems to resemble the Vatican with the Vedics and Kai, but are there numerous other levels that just don't show up on the show?
Are their Jesuit style missionaries preaching to other planets like Vulcan and Ferenginar?
Are their Knight Templars for the religion?
I am not saying they should answer these questions. Honestly, I think that over explaining or emphasizing details is always to the detriment of fictional universes, as vagueness and blind spots allow the viewers to imagine their own scenario for how things operate and allowing the audience to speculate helps them to engage with the material. But it I wonder if the writers of the series would have planned out more political developments and details related to the people and faith of Bajor had there been a sequel series.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 5:51 pm
by Jonathan101
Rocketboy1313 wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2019 5:42 pm
You know, there is a lot of room to create more and more lore for the Bajoran religion.
We see numerous clerics of various looks and station, we see several rituals and holidays, and references to the pre-occupation caste system, but we don't entirely see how it all holds together.
When you worship time traveling/timeless aliens I have to wonder how a lot of this started and congealed.
Was the caste thing a pre-prophets social structure that just hung around?
Why would timeless aliens have specific dates or annual events of significance?
Are holidays celebrations of historical events that got tied into the religion?
How exactly does the hierarchy of clerics work?
It seems to resemble the Vatican with the Vedics and Kai, but are there numerous other levels that just don't show up on the show?
Are their Jesuit style missionaries preaching to other planets like Vulcan and Ferenginar?
Are their Knight Templars for the religion?
I am not saying they should answer these questions. Honestly, I think that over explaining or emphasizing details is always to the detriment of fictional universes, as vagueness and blind spots allow the viewers to imagine their own scenario for how things operate and allowing the audience to speculate helps them to engage with the material. But it I wonder if the writers of the series would have planned out more political developments and details related to the people and faith of Bajor had there been a sequel series.
The DS9 books expand on Bajoran history a bit. They show that in the past, they were a bit like the Dominion in many ways, having a space-faring theocratic empire that subjugated other cultures.
I tend to think that they are based a bit more on the Jews though, what with the background of being highly religious and oppressed by foreign conquerors and how that impacted their identity.
Re: DS9 - The Collaborator
Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 6:30 pm
by FaxModem1
Rocketboy1313 wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2019 5:42 pm
You know, there is a lot of room to create more and more lore for the Bajoran religion.
We see numerous clerics of various looks and station, we see several rituals and holidays, and references to the pre-occupation caste system, but we don't entirely see how it all holds together.
When you worship time traveling/timeless aliens I have to wonder how a lot of this started and congealed.
Was the caste thing a pre-prophets social structure that just hung around?
Why would timeless aliens have specific dates or annual events of significance?
Are holidays celebrations of historical events that got tied into the religion?
How exactly does the hierarchy of clerics work?
It seems to resemble the Vatican with the Vedics and Kai, but are there numerous other levels that just don't show up on the show?
Are their Jesuit style missionaries preaching to other planets like Vulcan and Ferenginar?
Are their Knight Templars for the religion?
I am not saying they should answer these questions. Honestly, I think that over explaining or emphasizing details is always to the detriment of fictional universes, as vagueness and blind spots allow the viewers to imagine their own scenario for how things operate and allowing the audience to speculate helps them to engage with the material. But it I wonder if the writers of the series would have planned out more political developments and details related to the people and faith of Bajor had there been a sequel series.
I know one of the writers for DS9 had a map of Bajor, so that anything established would be consistent, so that Bajor would feel cohesive. However, they still sometimes messed up. For instance, the number of moons Bajor has changed over the years.