Sfdebris.net

As I recall, SFDebris quite strongly criticized the decision to remove Seven from the Collective against her will in one of the reviews (I think it was for the episode where Kes leaves, but I'm not sure). If I understand the objection, it was basically that Seven was not being considered fit to choose for herself unless she made the decision Janeway considered correct.

Now, I could counter by pointing out that someone who was abducted as a young child into a hive mind could reasonably be considered a likely victim of brainwashing/Stockholm Syndrome, but I'll be the first to acknowledge that psychology is not my strong suite, and in any case, that sounds like an argument that will start going in circles fast. So I'm going to come at this from a different angle:

The Borg are effectively at war with the Federation. Seven, when she was severed from the Collective, was actively engaged in hostilities against a Federation starship on behalf of the Collective.

She could, therefore, reasonably be considered a prisoner of war.

Moreover, since pre-Borg Annaka Hansen was presumably a Federation citizen, and presumably would still be one, if she voluntarily chose to rejoin the Collective, she would likely be guilty of treason against the Federation.

In either case, confining her, and severing her ability to communicate with enemy leadership, seems both justifiable and prudent. Granted, one does not usually remove pieces of a prisoner's body, but most prisoners' bodies do not include cybernetic devices that can communicate with the enemy or facilitate escape. While I'm not sure what laws the Federation would have governing such a situation, it can be argued that as long as the removal of implants was limited to those that could be used to facilitate escape, hostilities, or communication with the enemy, and kept as non-invasive as possible, it would be justifiable.

In short, it seems to me that their are two basic possibilities.

1. Seven of Nine is not mentally competent to make her own choices. Decisions about her care would then presumably fall to her next of kin or, in their absence, to either Janeway (as Voyager's CO) or the Doctor (as its Chief Medical Officer).

2. Seven of Nine is mentally competent to make her own choices. In that case, her choosing to rejoin the Collective would constitute treason against the Federation, and confining her and severing her link to the Collective would be a necessary security measure.

That doesn't mean every action Janeway took was correct, or done for the right reasons. But its an interesting perspective to consider.

Edit: On that note, I would absolutely love to role play the Court Martial of Captain Janeway in the role of the Defence Attorney (prosecution would be too easy).

I suppose it depends on what you personally think of the Borg and how you look at them.
I consider what the Borg do to sentient beings a form of rape, and what their victims become after that is a mindless, automated husk until
someone advanced enough, like the Federation come along to rescue and deprogram them.

Sure in this case you could possibly argue that it was up to Annaka Hansen as a consenting adult what she wanted to be, but given that Voyager was thousands of light-years away from any Federation court of law and as a borg she would be a threat to the crew deprogramming her and removing (most of) her Borg appendages was the most logical and humane course of action.

I would say the problem is not so much in the idea but in the execution. The way Janeway talks to her about it, she comes across as thinking she's absolutely correct and Seven will eventually follow. "You don't agree with me, therefore your judgment must be impaired!" It would help a great deal if she at least tried to talk to her at the same level instead of barking her judgment from up on high. Heck, how about trying to appeal to logic? The only frame of reference Seven has is as part of the Borg, so separating her and allowing her to experience life as an individual would provide for a more informed judgment on her part.

Relating to your second argument, I would have liked to see Janeway at least consider the possibility of allowing Seven to return to the Borg if she so desired after spending an extended time apart from them, even if she did ultimately dismiss that as a security risk. There have been occasions later where Seven has been tempted with rejoining the Borg, but as far as I can recall the motivation for "rescuing" her from that has always been her value as an individual, and rarely if ever is the security risk brought up.

My feeling is that a serviceable analogy for a drone is a drug addict - the hivemind's domination of individual thought is so crushingly complete that its sudden absence is the ultimate cold turkey, and it's no surprise the first thing a drone wants upon being disconnected is to get it back (and that's even assuming the Borg don't implant a deliberate compulsion to reconnect in the even of separation). Given the kind of mental situation they describe in talking about the Borg, it's kind of a miracle anyone can recover from assimilation at all. But honestly, I don't see any more argument for allowing someone to rejoin the Collective as I would for giving someone their next fix of cocaine just because they're addicted already (assuming cocaine were delivered via power drill through the eye and various other major surgeries, which I kinda feel like it's implied the victim can feel as it's happening). It'll satisfy their craving, sure, but everything else is downside.

Except they're also immediately going to go around trying to jab syringes into everyone else as well (and be frighteningly good at it), and it's a pretty sure thing they didn't even start using voluntarily to begin with. I mean, it's not like you make a couple of bad life choices and find yourself a drone before you know it (unless your life choice was 'join Starfleet', in which case... an argument could be made; maybe all the ensigns comfort themselves with the thought that statistically they're way more likely to be killed by their own console than assimilated). Do you get parents worried about their kids hanging around with Bynars, because they seem harmless enough but that sort of thing leads to Borg?

Honestly I feel like the only argument for not disconnecting Seven would be Prime Directive - same as Picard disapproving of the Brekkans exploiting the Ornarans, but having his hands tied (but for that one loophole). Seven's a human though, so apparently that means Starfleet can meddle all they like - loophole found, save her.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Edit: On that note, I would absolutely love to role play the Court Martial of Captain Janeway in the role of the Defence Attorney (prosecution would be too easy).

Would it though? Sure it seems like an open and shut case, but then your crazy future self appears out of nowhere and suddenly you're wishing you'd sat this one out.

MissKittyFantastico wrote:My feeling is that a serviceable analogy for a drone is a drug addict - the hivemind's domination of individual thought is so crushingly complete that its sudden absence is the ultimate cold turkey, and it's no surprise the first thing a drone wants upon being disconnected is to get it back (and that's even assuming the Borg don't implant a deliberate compulsion to reconnect in the even of separation). Given the kind of mental situation they describe in talking about the Borg, it's kind of a miracle anyone can recover from assimilation at all. But honestly, I don't see any more argument for allowing someone to rejoin the Collective as I would for giving someone their next fix of cocaine just because they're addicted already (assuming cocaine were delivered via power drill through the eye and various other major surgeries, which I kinda feel like it's implied the victim can feel as it's happening). It'll satisfy their craving, sure, but everything else is downside.

Or rescuing someone from a cult, in which case deprogramming is often necessary.

Come to think of it, Seven's reaction to getting severed from the Collective seems unusually strong in comparison to others. The closest to her situation would be Hugh, and he was mainly confused about his new condition, and quite calm. Even beyond him, I can't think of any freshly removed drones who were so eager to be reconnected at Seven. Maybe it is because she was assimilated so young, but we don't know that about the other drones so that comparison seems meaningless.

Crowley wrote:Come to think of it, Seven's reaction to getting severed from the Collective seems unusually strong in comparison to others. The closest to her situation would be Hugh, and he was mainly confused about his new condition, and quite calm. Even beyond him, I can't think of any freshly removed drones who were so eager to be reconnected at Seven. Maybe it is because she was assimilated so young, but we don't know that about the other drones so that comparison seems meaningless.

That it happened when she was so young is the implied issue. But not born into the collective fully or assimilated young enough to never have developed any memories or knowledge of not being a drone like with Hugh. She was just young enough to have developed her own personality, but still young enough for it to not be fully formed, to still be growing, but now grew into that of a drone. With on top of that, the whole having so many memories of being afraid and alone

An assimilated adult will have their original personality to fall back on, a drone since birth, or at least extremely early childhood, will have nothing, and so start fresh, but someone in Seven's case, has only the personality of a scared little girl to fall back on without being 'Borg' and so be more likely to reject it and want to stay Borg.

MissKittyFantastico wrote:My feeling is that a serviceable analogy for a drone is a drug addict - the hivemind's domination of individual thought is so crushingly complete that its sudden absence is the ultimate cold turkey, and it's no surprise the first thing a drone wants upon being disconnected is to get it back (and that's even assuming the Borg don't implant a deliberate compulsion to reconnect in the even of separation). Given the kind of mental situation they describe in talking about the Borg, it's kind of a miracle anyone can recover from assimilation at all. But honestly, I don't see any more argument for allowing someone to rejoin the Collective as I would for giving someone their next fix of cocaine just because they're addicted already (assuming cocaine were delivered via power drill through the eye and various other major surgeries, which I kinda feel like it's implied the victim can feel as it's happening). It'll satisfy their craving, sure, but everything else is downside.

I think it depends somewhat on how long you were assimilated and when you were assimilated.

Picard didn't wish to go back, but he was a grown man who was only briefly assimilated.

Poor Seven was a child who barely knew anything outside of the Borg.

Except they're also immediately going to go around trying to jab syringes into everyone else as well (and be frighteningly good at it), and it's a pretty sure thing they didn't even start using voluntarily to begin with. I mean, it's not like you make a couple of bad life choices and find yourself a drone before you know it (unless your life choice was 'join Starfleet', in which case... an argument could be made; maybe all the ensigns comfort themselves with the thought that statistically they're way more likely to be killed by their own console than assimilated). Do you get parents worried about their kids hanging around with Bynars, because they seem harmless enough but that sort of thing leads to Borg?

Heh.

But this comes back to the Borg being effectively at war with the Federation. So while the protocols would probably be different from "free Seven for her own good", well, no one normally bats an eye at detaining enemy soldiers (or traitors) and severing their communications with the enemy leadership, do they?

Honestly I feel like the only argument for not disconnecting Seven would be Prime Directive - same as Picard disapproving of the Brekkans exploiting the Ornarans, but having his hands tied (but for that one loophole). Seven's a human though, so apparently that means Starfleet can meddle all they like - loophole found, save her.

I'm not even sure how the PD would be applicable, because against, they're not interfering with internal Borg affairs- they're capturing a Federation citizen who, depending on how you look at it, has been abducted and brainwashed, or (if willingly seeking to rejoin the Borg) is a traitor. While dealing with a faction they are at war with.

Remember, Seven was actively engaged in hostilities against a Federation starship when initially disconnected.

Would it though? Sure it seems like an open and shut case, but then your crazy future self appears out of nowhere and suddenly you're wishing you'd sat this one out.

Oh, some of the Federation court cases must be absolutely hilarious.

"We have a record of you murdering ten people!"

"But my future self told me I had to in order to preserve the time line!"

There was that trio of ex-drones that it turned out Seven had been with when their ship faceplanted a planet - they'd started individualising, Seven freaked out and jury rigged a temporary link to keep them from escaping while she waited to be 'rescued'. I think that was one of the times they raised her childhood assimilation as a factor in her thinking, that she just didn't have an 'adult self' to reassert itself in the absence of the hivemind, only a 'child self' that freaked out and started wailing "I want my techno-mummy!" instead of thinking rationally. (...and then Sutekh's robots showed up, "Oh, sorry, misunderstood...")

Hugh's a bit problematic, unless I'm forgetting something he never seemed to have any of his 'old self' resurface - his desire not to return to the Borg stemmed from the connections he'd made with Geordi et. al. (did he ever reference any pre-Borg identity, even in 'Descent'? I don't recall anything along those lines). There's nothing really to indicate whether he was assimilated five days ago, or if he was a Borg baby and never knew anything else. Maybe he was a Borg baby, and never having been an individual at all made him more calm about the whole thing - he just didn't understand what was going on, and waited for instructions which he tried to comprehend, whereas when Seven is separated her child individuality resurfaces and her intellect gets swept along by panicked emotional urges she's never had the life experience to know how to rein in.

("Look, it's a noble thing to want to adopt a rescue Borg, I'm just saying you should be aware that it's a big commitment. We see a lot of rescue Borgs adopted over Christmas as presents for kids, and then they get abandoned when the family realises how much work it's going to be to keep them, so maybe you'd want to consider a nursery Borg instead, they've got a calmer temperament, they're generally more obedient, or we've got these adult Borg, they're pretty low-maintenance, more self-sufficient, they do occasionally try to form new collectives and assimilate the cat but you can train that out of them...")

There was also the Queen occasionally blathering about Seven being special, but it's anyone's guess what that was supposed to mean; honestly I kind of push most of what Queenie said and did into the same bin as 'Threshold' - good for a laugh but don't try to think about it. I like the idea that Locutus was being completely sincere when he seemed confused that Riker and co. were putting up a fight - like the Borg collective's thought processes are just so different to ours that they can't understand individuality, and it's baffling to the Borg that anything capable of walking and breathing at the same time wouldn't be smart enough to see that obviously being assimilated is an awesome win-win scenario with no drawbacks at all. Like, from their point of view, every other species is wandering around with bear traps attached to their junk, but when the Borg offer to take them off and maybe give us some anaesthetic cream we all pull phasers and shout "Back off! We like it this way!"

(Edit: And Serapham said most of that about Seven's emotional age more concisely while I was wasting time coming up with the bear trap analogy.)

SlackerinDeNile wrote:I suppose it depends on what you personally think of the Borg and how you look at them.
I consider what the Borg do to sentient beings a form of rape, and what their victims become after that is a mindless, automated husk until someone advanced enough, like the Federation come along to rescue and deprogram them.

Annika was kidnapped and enslaved by the Borg. A particularly insidious form of slavery where the victim cannot be free even in their own head. The problem with deferring to a drone's decision is that their free will is compromised by definition by their status as a drone.