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So I'm working through all the star trek reviews and I'm up to real life in voyager. Now as difficult as this obviously was to review what struck me here is that this is a simulation. This isn't real life when bad things can happen by chance. For the doctors daughter to die as a result of an accident in a game then it had to be programmed for (a) her to be badly injured and (b) no medical treatment to be possible. Which means Torre's idea of a "realistic" program for the doctor to experience family was for his daughter to be killed like this. Even if its just a chance for it to occur then she still had to program into his simulation a X% chance for his child, possibly his entire family to be killed by some event he can't change and that it would take long enough for him a skilled medical doctor and surgeon to realize he can't do anything to stop it.

That is an extremely sadistic thing to do to a program someone is using to relax and learn about interacting with people. Even given the family isn't real the emotions and experiences of the doctor interacting with it are and she either said "I will program the possibility of his beloved children to be killed because its realistic." or didn't check that whatever changes she made didn't introduce that possibility.

That disturbs me.

Senko wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:15 am
That is an extremely sadistic thing to do to a program someone is using to relax and learn about interacting with people. Even given the family isn't real the emotions and experiences of the doctor interacting with it are and she either said "I will program the possibility of his beloved children to be killed because its realistic." or didn't check that whatever changes she made didn't introduce that possibility.

That disturbs me.

In fact, I find this one of the best elements of Torres' character development because it shows that Torres has a far different view of what a family life is than the Doctor's. Her family is a source of misery and despair for her rather than a source of comfort and it reflects itself in how the Doctor's idealized family pisses her off.

And yes, she deliberately programmed the Doctors Tamaguchi to die.

A "If I can't have a happy family then no one shall have a happy family, now hold still you little brat" takes aim approach.

EDIT
Which for some reason I hear in the Janeway imitation voice used by a certain opinionated reviewer rather than Torres's.

Senko wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:57 am A "If I can't have a happy family then no one shall have a happy family, now hold still you little brat" takes aim approach.

Eh, I think Torres flat out does not believe happy families exist. The pain is part of her love for her mother and they can't be separated (because her mom was an abusive targ). Which isn't wrong but born from her anger.

But yes, both the Doctor and they were taking this way too seriously.

If the simulation were simply a diversion, something the doctor was playing at, then yeah, what Torres did is majorly uncalled for.

However, the Doctor stated it was a learning tool, a way for him to experience a family dynamic and so understand it better. And while not everyone necessarily experiences the loss of a child, most people do experience the loss of a family member at some point in their lives. If the Doctor is genuinely trying to learn about what having a family is like, then grief is an important part of the equation.

Fianna wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:11 am If the simulation were simply a diversion, something the doctor was playing at, then yeah, what Torres did is majorly uncalled for.

However, the Doctor stated it was a learning tool, a way for him to experience a family dynamic and so understand it better. And while not everyone necessarily experiences the loss of a child, most people do experience the loss of a family member at some point in their lives. If the Doctor is genuinely trying to learn about what having a family is like, then grief is an important part of the equation.

Oddly, that makes it more traumatizing. However, as a Doctor, it will probably have an important effect in his understanding of death.

Poor poor Tamaguchi simulated child.

Senko wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:15 am So I'm working through all the star trek reviews and I'm up to real life in voyager. Now as difficult as this obviously was to review what struck me here is that this is a simulation. This isn't real life when bad things can happen by chance. For the doctors daughter to die as a result of an accident in a game then it had to be programmed for (a) her to be badly injured and (b) no medical treatment to be possible. Which means Torre's idea of a "realistic" program for the doctor to experience family was for his daughter to be killed like this. Even if its just a chance for it to occur then she still had to program into his simulation a X% chance for his child, possibly his entire family to be killed by some event he can't change and that it would take long enough for him a skilled medical doctor and surgeon to realize he can't do anything to stop it.

That is an extremely sadistic thing to do to a program someone is using to relax and learn about interacting with people. Even given the family isn't real the emotions and experiences of the doctor interacting with it are and she either said "I will program the possibility of his beloved children to be killed because its realistic." or didn't check that whatever changes she made didn't introduce that possibility.

That disturbs me.

Jack in the Boxes, IE, event triggers are a thing in computer programs. Torres added them to the program, because she's been through some stuff with her parents, and knows that living in a Leave it to Beaver fantasy is nowhere near reality. Whether her father's abandonment due to the constant arguments, or because her mother kept on hammering her with religious rites so that she was a good, proper Klingon, her experience is that family life means tragedy. Now, did she purposely make it to where Belle was going to die, no matter what? Probably not.

Keep in mind that the program increased in percentage of real life happening, due to whatever they were involved in. His teenage son Jeffrey is at a school with high school friends, so he meets with some Klingons and gets into their club. His wife isn't in the 1950s, so she has a career of her own. With the daughter, she was already programmed to be into athletics, so she takes up dangerous sports. The thing is, his daughter was engaged in Pareses Squares, a dangerous sport that is known to lead to permanent injury. His daughter is what, 12? That's quite young for a full contact sport with no real padding. Riker even notes it in Future Imperfect that someone his supposed kid's age shouldn't be playing that sport. The Doctor even notes in the episode that Belle is playing with kids three years older than her.

To use a modern analogy, imagine if your kid, who is maybe ten to twelve, was engaged in playing full contact football with high schoolers. Would you keep them on the team, or let them play as long as were on the JV team? If that keeps on happening, an accident is bound to happen. The program gave the Doctor a chance, and he ignored the dice rolls in the background, despite fully knowing that his daughter was getting into a dangerous activity.

If she was involved in, say, Bolian poetry, she might get involved into some beatnik scene with hippies or something, but she was into athletics, and such things would have consequences.

Real Life review: https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v864.php

Torres' behaviour in Real Life is why the Doc decided to play a Catholic Priest in Voyager's Irish Hate Crime episodes.

I mean the Doc is all "I created this video game to have fun". And Torres is all "Noob git some pwnage, no ch34t codes, fake gamerboi". The Doc tries it and is all "Nah this is no fun now, I'm out". Mentions it to Tom who is all "scrubb, git sum". So the Doc goes back and it is horrible and so is all "FML, next time I'm playing a video game I'm taking a character who doesn't have to deal with this shit." And that is the story of Real Life and Fair Haven as told through the medium of videogames.

I don’t really think it’s fair to call Torres sadistic because these are not real people. The Doctor’s emotions about the “death” of his “daughter” aren’t any different than crying over the death of a favorite character. That’s problem with the plot in the first place. They wanted him to have a great loss (for whatever reason), but they cannot make her real because the death is preventable. If she were, then Torres would be sadistic because she altered the programming of living beings, Tom would be cruel for suggesting the girl be allowed to die, and the Doctor would be as well, for letting it happen.

If they wanted it to be a real death, then they needed the Doctor to make a real family, or at least a real daughter. She would have to die from an outside source. Then the Doctor could have his dilemma...

The program is unstable. She will die whether he runs the program or not. If he doesn’t run it, she dies alone, but she’ll never know it. However, she could have hours or days left to live, and the Doctor would be denying her of this. By running it, he could make her last hours special, but that would mean he has to watch her die.

Of course, with Voyager, none of this still would have mattered in future episodes.

Senko wrote: ↑Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:57 am A "If I can't have a happy family then no one shall have a happy family, now hold still you little brat" takes aim approach.

That's attributing a malice I don't think Torres has, nor demonstrates.

As others say, it's a question of verisimilitude for her. It's not a real family. It's a sad reflection on her, but an honest one. And given the Federation, she's probably surrounded by people bragging about how amazing their families are, so not only is she fixing the Doctor's simulation but she's expressing her frustration at the erasure of her experience by making it real through his. It's a lousy way to get your own therapy in, but it's a more charitable reading of the character.