Sfdebris.net

I agree with what Chuck says about how pointless David's death was, but I do like how Kirk tries to save Kruge's life anyway. As we saw with the Gorn and Kodos, what makes Kirk an heroic figure is that he will refuse to kill a man who is at his mercy. Preferring, I presume, to cart the villain off to jail.

And what adds to it is that Kirk is so cut up about it on the bridge earlier. And supposedly it was all unplanned. Shatner wanted to give one of his BIG SPEECHES but apparently they kept on filming until he ended up being so tired that he missed his chair but his credit kept on acting. I also hear the prefix code scene in TWOK was the same - film, film, film until Shatner stops being a ham.

I personally really enjoy The Search for Spock just as much as The Wrath of Khan myself, I do see Chuck's point and agree that on a technical level doesn't have the same punch as Wrath of Khan, so it's more personal preference on my part more than anything, for example, for me scenes like the stealing of the Enterprise and the ships destruction are just as exciting and memorable as the first attack of Khan and the battle in the Mutara Nebula.

I do disagree on Kruge however and feel he is Star Treks most underrated villain, what makes him interesting for me is one: unlike Khan who was Kirk's superior, Kruge is Kirk's equal and parallel, that he is a captain doing what is best for his government rather than for personal power, and two: that he brings the Klingons original allegory of Communist Russia and the Cold War to the foreground.

Let me explain: the Genesis Device while being created for peaceful purposes, but much like when Nuclear energy was discovered it was ultimately seen as a weapon of mass destruction, and what we see in these Star Trek films is the Federation creating their own Nukes, and regardless of Genesis's intended use that's how Kruge views it as, his motivation isn't so he can get more power for himself or the empire or whatever honour based reason, but not trusting such destructive power in anyone but Klingon hands, espeshally in the Federations, after all, this destructive weapon was created by the United "we come in peace" Federation of Planets, if the supposed peace loving Federation is willing to build such a destructive power, Kruge isn't going to trust them to use it responsible, so his motivation is to uncover the secrets of Genesis to either find a counter to it, or to create their own Genesis Devise so the Federations and Klingons are back on equal footing, thus much like the Cold War, both have destructive weapons that if one uses the other will respond and ensure mutual destruction, and so both end up never using them.

And not only do I love the deliberate parallel to the explanation of Genesis for Wrath of Khan, as it shows the similarity between both Kirk and Kruge, and showing that the villains aren't mustache twirling evil, and also his simple response to seeing what Genesis can do and to his officers:

Kruge wrote:Oh, yes. New cities and homes in the country. Your woman at your side. Children playing at your feet, and overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation! Charming.

I also like that much like Wrath of Khan was a gold standard of Star Trek films, in my opinion Kruge is the gold standard of how Klingons should be, as he has the overall mentality of honour but without going full space-viking like those in The Next Generation, and that he was also setup for the overall theme of The Undiscovered Country, that the Federation and Klingons don't trust each other.

I agree with Chuck.

This is a good movie. Not great, but good, and with a tough act to follow overshadowing it.

I'll gladly watch The Search for Spock again, especially as part of a viewing of all 3 movies.

Ironically, I'd rather not watch The Voyage Home often, because I watched it a ton of times as a kid due to a limited supply of movies on tape.

Nevix wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:29 am I agree with Chuck.

This is a good movie. Not great, but good, and with a tough act to follow overshadowing it.

I'll gladly watch The Search for Spock again, especially as part of a viewing of all 3 movies.

Ironically, I'd rather not watch The Voyage Home often, because I watched it a ton of times as a kid due to a limited supply of movies on tape.

Same, after Wrath of Khan, I'll alway put Search for Spock on afterwards.

Honestly, I feel that when any franchise has an entry like The Wrath of Khan were it's considered the undisputed best of its franchise, even something that is great in it's own right is still not good enough, and most times you hear "this good... but it's no [Insert entry here]", and I feel like you said, the biggest issue with The Search of Spock is that it is following right after The Wrath of Khan.

This isn't me putting down Wrath of Khan either, it is a great film, but I do feel it's pedestal is far to high for any new entry to live up to, not only in the eyes of fans who will not accept anything less than perfect, but for the creators of the films, as Chuck pointed out many future Star Trek films tried to emulate Wrath of Khan to try and recreate that success, rather than trying something new and taking a risk, and so we end up with six films in a row that deal with themes of revenge, or have some elements of revenge, and Wrath of Khan in general.

Link8909 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:58 pm

Nevix wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:29 am I agree with Chuck.

This is a good movie. Not great, but good, and with a tough act to follow overshadowing it.

I'll gladly watch The Search for Spock again, especially as part of a viewing of all 3 movies.

Ironically, I'd rather not watch The Voyage Home often, because I watched it a ton of times as a kid due to a limited supply of movies on tape.

Same, after Wrath of Khan, I'll alway put Search for Spock on afterwards.

Honestly, I feel that when any franchise has an entry like The Wrath of Khan were it's considered the undisputed best of its franchise, even something that is great in it's own right is still not good enough, and most times you hear "this good... but it's no [Insert entry here]", and I feel like you said, the biggest issue with The Search of Spock is that it is following right after The Wrath of Khan.

This isn't me putting down Wrath of Khan either, it is a great film, but I do feel it's pedestal is far to high for any new entry to live up to, not only in the eyes of fans who will not accept anything less than perfect, but for the creators of the films, as Chuck pointed out many future Star Trek films tried to emulate Wrath of Khan to try and recreate that success, rather than trying something new and taking a risk, and so we end up with six films in a row that deal with themes of revenge, or have some elements of revenge, and Wrath of Khan in general.

Yeah, that's one of the biggest problems of Star Trek movies.

Instead of making a new Star Trek movie around exploration or some other theme, they go back to the Wrath of Khan well.

It is the same problem Star Wars has, too busy trying to outdo Empire Strikes Back in its downbeat ending, rather than simply telling a good Star Wars tale on its own. So is Star Trek too lost in its own mythology around The Wrath of Khan.

I liked Search for Spock though. I think it is a good movie, and I liked the theft of the Enterprise and even its destruction scene is pretty emotionally satisfying to me. The ship gets to have its famous last stand for its crew, and I disagree with Chuck that it is a letdown that it isn't more heroic; it is plenty heroic enough for me and it contributes to the theme of the Good of the One can outweigh the Good of the Many.

Two thoughts I have on Search for Spock is that it is aped by later movies.
And that the destruction of Enterprise did hit an emotional chord. The wrong one.

To the producers the Enterprise was a thing. To fans she was both home and another character in her own right. Killing her off for the sake of it felt like the same gut punch as killing off Optimus Prime to make room for a new toy. I don't know about others. But I don't kill my dog for a new one.
And they keep trying to steal that gut punch. Oh look we killed the Enterprise D pretty sadly. NuTrek let's blow up the Enterprise as an excuse to build a new one. And I like Star Trek Beyond. But Kirk and crew didn't go as above and beyond as the crew in Voyage Home did to earn that legacy.

I've never heard or read that it was intentional, but the fact that the Grissom captain's name was J. T. Esteban always made me wonder if it was a "he's no Kirk" reference. They may share the same first two initials, but not the last.

As fans, we don't really like his caution, but from a realistic standpoint, it's actually refreshing to see someone in Starfleet show some common sense before letting potentially hazardous materials on the ship.

The thing about Kruge is he's essentially a "working man" Klingon warrior. He's got a small ship and crew. Whether his mission is authorized or not, he's clearly expendable. Even his attitude towards Genesis shows this. While destroying a planet might be a valid display of power on occasion, it's no way to build or expand an Empire. You conquer planets because they have resources you want: food, minerals, labor force, etc. Destroying them outright does the Empire no good. In Star Wars, the whole point of "The Tarkin Doctrine" wasn't to go around destroying planets. It was to let people know you're willing an able to and let their fear do the rest. Kruge is a thug, not a conqueror. He revels in the destructive part of his job, but has no vision beyond it. From that standpoint, it's fitting that he's not a great villain because being epic is lost on him.