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https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t149.php

Once again I find myself disagreeing with Chuck, as I see this is a really good episode - easily a 6 or 7. I don't really see that much of a poor performance from the colonists, especially compared to some other stuff out there, and it presented a very different sort of moral take than one would expect concerning forced relocation. This isn't a case like Insurrection, where it's the exploitation of a natural resource that would have a byproduct of destroying their immortality - hell, it's not even comparable to the Natives in Journey's End, where they purportedly had representation at the treaty negotiations. The Sheliak are very different from the Cardassians and were willing to bend the treaty a little bit - the Sheliak were more than happy to wipe out the humans if they didn't get them off the planet, and the complexity of the treaty meant there was no chance of getting the diplomats out again. You're already trying to approach this race from a position where they see you as a lower form of life, so forced relocation is the only option... and this episode came down on the side of "Staying alive is more important than dying pointlessly to preserve our culture." It's actually an interesting counterpoint to Masterpiece Society - their supposed cultural identity and pride of surviving the radiation field is less important than their lives, and they must change to do better. And you don't see Picard bemoaning the loss of that for the sake of the prime directive or some such bullshit.

Plus it was just nice to see Data having to do some more command and negotiation stuff than he was used to, adapt his ways of dealing with emotional beings who wouldn't see his more logical points.

Linkara wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:14 pm
I don't really see that much of a poor performance from the colonists, especially compared to some other stuff out there, and it presented a very different sort of moral take than one would expect concerning forced relocation. This isn't a case like Insurrection, where it's the exploitation of a natural resource that would have a byproduct of destroying their immortality - hell, it's not even comparable to the Natives in Journey's End, where they purportedly had representation at the treaty negotiations. The Sheliak are very different from the Cardassians and were willing to bend the treaty a little bit - the Sheliak were more than happy to wipe out the humans if they didn't get them off the planet, and the complexity of the treaty meant there was no chance of getting the diplomats out again.

I agree in this situation it seems like that the alternatives are break the treaty and the Sheliak destroy the colony anyway but restart the war that lead to the treaty and kill more people or get the people of the planet. However I think it makes perfect sense that people would irrationally cling to the hope of some way of keeping their home etc. even in the face of such odds, so the colony's resistance to Data also tracks.

I can't help but compare this to the Maquis situation in Deep Space Nine (which was sort of beta tested in Journey's end). I know a lot of vocal fans in discussion of episodes are often dismissive of the idea that the Federation should uphold the treaty in the face of oppression the colonists in the DMZ experience (I forget what Chuck's take on this was), but I find it very easy to believe (heck I feel like it is implied by the way the situation is discussed) that the imperfections of the treaty reflect a not dissimilar no win scenario as with this sort of case.

I don't understand how humans are so far beneath them that they will kill them without a thought, but are somehow worth entering into a treaty with.

I feel like this usually goes the other way first. Sure, you can say "alien culture/thought", but that doesn't explain how this would actually work in a practical sense or what would motivate them to act in this way.

Did someone manage to rules-lawyer the Sheliak into signing the treaty in the first place, too?

Deledrius wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:12 pm I don't understand how humans are so far beneath them that they will kill them without a thought, but are somehow worth entering into a treaty with.

I feel like this usually goes the other way first. Sure, you can say "alien culture/thought", but that doesn't explain how this would actually work in a practical sense or what would motivate them to act in this way.

Did someone manage to rules-lawyer the Sheliak into signing the treaty in the first place, too?

I don't know, we did it all the time with Native Americans. It was a way to stop the wars and save white lives.

They may also have rules about sentient races, regardless of worth. It would be as if PETA or the Humane Society got a say in rules for dealing with other cultures. The majority might have seen it as being those hippy Sheliak, who forced us into this stupid rule, but we believe in rules, so we obey the rule.

A 4 is fair, and traditionally this is a low-rated episode. It's wonky and slow, and it's not really in the groove of later Data episodes.

The visuals for this episode are pretty bad. In standard def the bad guys looked like shiny garbage bags, this is one that definitely needed the HD remaster just to look okay. This was also the first show I noticed bad ADR on. Goshevan's dub is horrible. And now I'm sorry to have heard about the Wil Wheaton drama.

At the same time, I have a soft spot for this one, too: despite its many faults, this episode is perhaps the essence of Star Trek: based around a few high concepts in sci-fi, a whole lot of problem solving and negotiation, and just a touch of character drama. The big achievement is *avoiding* the big space battle.

Troi's scene about the way the Sheliak perceive and communicate was fascinating, if a bit open ended. It's a reminder of how we don't meet a lot of "alien" aliens in Star Trek.

This is also the healthiest romance Data ever had. Waaaay better than "In Theory" and... everything else.

Percysowner wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:26 pm I don't know, we did it all the time with Native Americans. It was a way to stop the wars and save white lives.

Fair point. That should have occurred to me but did not.

AllanO wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:04 pmI agree in this situation it seems like that the alternatives are break the treaty and the Sheliak destroy the colony anyway but restart the war that lead to the treaty and kill more people or get the people of the planet

There's no indication the Sheliak ever fought a war with the Federation. They seem very disinterested in conflict.

So, when Data shot the pumping station, did he stop the flow of water to the settlement? Was the water we saw flowing at the end of the episode the last of the flow? Was the plan "If this fails, they'll die of thirst."

pilight wrote: ↑Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:03 pm There's no indication the Sheliak ever fought a war with the Federation. They seem very disinterested in conflict.

They would not need a treaty if there was no conflict at all. So clearly there were interactions that led to conflict that led to the treaty. Now the conflict need not be violent but what other kind of conflict seems likely? It does not seem like they trade with the Federations so no trade dispute, and they have a complete disregard for human and related lifeforms lives suggesting it would not take much to cause them to resort to violence in a conflict, as if there was a dispute over territory (as seen in this episode). Of course the Sheliak would presumably not classify such a violent conflict as war, but just pest control.

LordFeagans wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:14 am So, when Data shot the pumping station, did he stop the flow of water to the settlement? Was the water we saw flowing at the end of the episode the last of the flow? Was the plan "If this fails, they'll die of thirst."

I mean, the plan is obviously, "show how utterly boned they are."

However, at this point, the colony is doomed either way.