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One key thing I think that wasn't discussed in the episode or in the review was that since Worf was such a bad father to his son, Alexander joined the Klingon military just to receive the time of day from him. Yes, Alexander should NOT be a warrior. But due to his upbringing, Alexander really doesn't have many options in Klingon society.

Worf reminds me a bit like one of those fathers who trained their kid at age 5 to be a football player, and is disgusted that the kid didn't make Varsity in high school, and won't speak to him because of it. So, the last we see of Alexander, he's the ship's mascot, and still an utter embarrassment to his father. However, the show takes Worf's side, in that being a warrior is all that matters, and poor Worf has to be ashamed by his lackluster son.

In my opinion, the episode should have been a little different, with either Alexander realizing that this life isn't for him, or that he was on board as a civilian, maybe there as a diplomatic representative, civilian mechanic, or something. The episode takes the opposite approach 'Journey to Babel' takes, in that there's a gap between father and son. But instead of recognizing each other's differences, and that Spock was not following his father in being a Vulcan, but still honored their culture, it appears that the moral is that Alexander just needed to knuckle down and be more of a traditional Klingon.

Thoughts?

Say what you will about Worf's parenting, but at least he recognized that the Enterprise was not a safe fucking environment for a child. 'Lil Alex never got snatched by childless aliens, or shoved in Borg incubation tank, or turned inside out by an alien god-devil. He was safe with his doting grandparents, while all the other kids were getting scraped off the schoolhouse ceiling at the end of Generations.

That said, this episode is rather interesting if you consider it as a follow-up to Firstborn. That was about Worf pushing Alexander to be a Klingon warrior, when he didn't want to be; this one is about Alexander trying to be a Klingon warrior, and Worf telling him he isn't cut out for it.

J!! wrote:Say what you will about Worf's parenting, but at least he recognized that the Enterprise was not a safe fucking environment for a child. 'Lil Alex never got snatched by childless aliens, or shoved in Borg incubation tank, or turned inside out by an alien god-devil. He was safe with his doting grandparents, while all the other kids were getting scraped off the schoolhouse ceiling at the end of Generations.

That said, this episode is rather interesting if you consider it as a follow-up to Firstborn. That was about Worf pushing Alexander to be a Klingon warrior, when he didn't want to be; this one is about Alexander trying to be a Klingon warrior, and Worf telling him he isn't cut out for it.

That didn't seem to be Worf's stated reason though. More that he didn't really want to connect with his son. Sure, Worf got lucky that little Alexander didn't find himself dealing with Borg Invaders, but that's a happy coincidence to his not wanting his son around, and only taking his kid when his parents told him to stop foisting their grandchild on them and actually be a dad.

J!! wrote:Say what you will about Worf's parenting, but at least he recognized that the Enterprise was not a safe fucking environment for a child. 'Lil Alex never got snatched by childless aliens, or shoved in Borg incubation tank, or turned inside out by an alien god-devil. He was safe with his doting grandparents, while all the other kids were getting scraped off the schoolhouse ceiling at the end of Generations.

That wasn't his reason, but if it were it came rather late. Alexander was on the Enterprise during numerous anomalies of the week and alien attacks, including being held hostage by Ferengi and having to put himself in danger to save the ship after his own father's department utterly failed in seconds. Plus that near fatal holo-Western. Plus he nearly burned to death on the ship trying rescue those alien glove puppets.

Never did get the kids thing anyway, because sure you want your family close. But rushing them into confrontations with the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Borg plus numerous others or flying into random space stuff like Nagilum really isn't a job you want when you're supposed to be defending/fixing the ship while also worrying about little Jimmy trapped on the decompressing Deck 12 or whatever.

Wolf359 wrote:
Never did get the kids thing anyway, because sure you want your family close. But rushing them into confrontations with the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Borg plus numerous others or flying into random space stuff like Nagilum really isn't a job you want when you're supposed to be defending/fixing the ship while also worrying about little Jimmy trapped on the decompressing Deck 12 or whatever.

I think the whole Galaxy-class project was a big publicity stunt of the pre-359, "we're not a military", "we don't sneak around" etc Federation and the bring the kids along, ship is like a mall aesthetic, etc was part of it. And it was a publicity stunt that failed (between the wakeup of 359, loss of the Odessy with all hands, loss of the Enterprise, etc), hence why newer ships such as the Sovereign-class and Defiant-class were more militaristic (and probably why Excellcior-class ships were still being used in mass numbers well into the Dominion War).

Dînadan wrote:(and probably why Excelsior-class ships were still being used in mass numbers well into the Dominion War).

I figured the simply built hordes of Excelsiors during a Reagan-like arms build-up, then after the Federation-Klingon Cold War ended, they decided to simply refit the Excelsiors, and pushed off the Ambassador to later. Then the Ambassador-class and Galaxy-class smashed into each other like the F-22 and F-35, resulting in the few Ambassador-class ships we saw. Then 359 happened and they decided that they needed new ships.

TGLS wrote:

Dînadan wrote:(and probably why Excelsior-class ships were still being used in mass numbers well into the Dominion War).

I figured the simply built hordes of Excelsiors during a Reagan-like arms build-up, then after the Federation-Klingon Cold War ended, they decided to simply refit the Excelsiors, and pushed off the Ambassador to later. Then the Ambassador-class and Galaxy-class smashed into each other like the F-22 and F-35, resulting in the few Ambassador-class ships we saw. Then 359 happened and they decided that they needed new ships.

Agreed they probably mass produced them between Star Trek VI and TNG, I was referring more to why they weren't mothballed during the course of the TNG era; pre-359 they were kept around because they worked and Starfleet weren't focused on mass production so were planned to only be slowly mothballed as new ships were gradually built, then post-359 they were kept around instead of continuing to be mothballed because they filled the more militaristic mindset and worked, hence why there were still plenty in service even after production of new ships was ramped up. Also, if mothballing just meant dumping them in a shipyard/starship graveyard rather than disassembling them, it's possible the omnipresence of Excelciors post-359 could have been them dusting the old ships off as a stop-gap while production of new ships was ramped up and stayed in service even after the new classes had entered service en-mass because they worked well in the roles the post-359 Starfleet needed them so didn't get remothballed.

*comes back into forum after internet has been down for a week*

Why the hell are we discussing Starfleet ship classes?

*grumbles*

Yeah, Families on Starships received a blow due to Wolf 359 and the Odyssey's destruction (luckily evacuated of all non-combat personnel beforehand). Intrepid, Defiant, and Sovereign class ships didn't seem to have any civilians on board unless it was a special circumstance.

That said, considering Worf's options, it's quite clear that Alexander's safety is NOT the reason he dodged raising him whenever he could. After all, he never invited Alexander to DS9, and didn't seem to really care about his son's life until the kid was staring at him on Martok's ship.

This episode always fell short for me in that long term in doesn't mean much for Worf or Alexander given the latter never shows up again after 6x07, and it feeling like its just something for Worf to do in the DS9 occupation arc. Every time I watch Sons and Daughters I find myself wishing the secondary plot was involving the likes of maybe Sisko and Rom forming unlikely connections to Nog and Jake respectively as all four struggle with the possibility of not seeing their loved ones again. Not terribly dramatic, but would have made for a fun character piece at least.

Dînadan wrote:I think the whole Galaxy-class project was a big publicity stunt of the pre-359, "we're not a military", "we don't sneak around" etc Federation and the bring the kids along, ship is like a mall aesthetic, etc. was part of it. And it was a publicity stunt that failed

Real World reason: Children on the Enterprise-D was a relic of the original plan, in that the Galaxy-class starships were literally meant to be a generational ship - when the ship returned home from their 20 year mission for their maintenance overhaul (yes, it was originally going to be 20 years), it would be crewed by the descendants of the crew that first went out.

In-Universe: I agree with Ron Moore on the idea that families on starships was an experiment (remember, the Enterprise wasn't the only ship with them) that was started in the antebellum years that proceeded Wolf 359. The Klingons, for all intents and purposes, had been "tamed" (for the most part), the Romulans had withdrawn inward, and I make the presumption that the war with the Cardassians (which wasn't mentioned until TNG's fourth season) was in a state of détente (or at least a tense stalemate) by the time of "Encounter at Farpoint." It wasn't until the first Borg attack on Earth and eventually the conflict with the Dominion that Starfleet and the Federation finally got it through their thick skulls to remove children and non-Starfleet relatives off of starships.