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I generally am not a fan of cringe-comedy myself (with the exception of "The Dinner Party" episode of The Office), but this episode had two elements I very much appreciated:

1) I'm not sure if this was intentional, but having Mariner being skeptical that Barbara existed AND having Barbara serving aboard the USS Vancouver was a brilliant joke at the expense of the concept of the "Canadian Girlfriend."

and

2) I'm very, very grateful the episode at no point ever suggests that Mariner is doing all this because she has secret feelings for Boimler. I'm especially grateful that in their big blow-up argument, Boimler does not accuse her of being jealous of Barbara, but instead accuses her of doing all this to avoid simply admitting she was wrong. The show has thus far done a great job of demonstrating that, however toxic their relationship might be, it is purely platonic, thus avoiding the tiresome "opposite-sex leads must hook up" trope we see so often.

No sane mind would be interested in someone with Mariner's personality anyways, except if a masochist maybe. But then again, nobody would want to be friends with her either, given she's just a collosal arsehole which remains at her rank purely because she's afraid to not be the top dog anymore, if promoted.

bz316 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:52 am2) I'm very, very grateful the episode at no point ever suggests that Mariner is doing all this because she has secret feelings for Boimler. I'm especially grateful that in their big blow-up argument, Boimler does not accuse her of being jealous of Barbara, but instead accuses her of doing all this to avoid simply admitting she was wrong. The show has thus far done a great job of demonstrating that, however toxic their relationship might be, it is purely platonic, thus avoiding the tiresome "opposite-sex leads must hook up" trope we see so often.

The irony is that I actually think that she did do that. Here's the thing, normally I would be against such a argument that she's secretly motivated by jealousy because that plot is trite and overused. Except here's the reverse: if she DIDN'T do it out of jealousy, it's MUCH MUCH WORSE. Because if she did it out of jealousy, Mariner is letting her own taking Boimler for granted and missed opportunities affect her.

If she DIDNT do it out of jealousy, she thinks Boimler is SO pathetic and SO disgusting that even in the utopian Star Trek future that literally NO ONE would date him unless they were a vampire. That's outright HATRED of a person.

And making it purely platonic just makes it MORE toxic and abusive.

To enjoy cringe comedy, it feels like you need to be completely divorced not only from the characters, but from general empathy. To laugh at people's misfortunes (when they don't deserve it) requires you to not imagine yourself in their shoes or feel how badly they must feel. If the story doesn't mitigate this, the only thing viewers will take away from the series is that things get worse and worse for the lowliest and those who perpetuate this misfortune will just keep doing it without punishment. And eventually, people may watch something else because we have enough of that in real life, we don't need it in our entertainment.

I feel that cringe comedy has the smallest life in terms of humor because it breaks that all too critical rule of "Don't punch down."

Yeah, it's one of the weaker episodes of S1. I really like the show but the toxic relationship between those 2 can be a bit much in some episodes. And "cringe comedy" rarely works for me. Even with somewhat mild things I just help but feel it and not want to see it. I don't know if ever happened with this episode but sometimes I actually plug my ears if it's getting too much til they move to the next scene.

I still quite enjoy S1 overall but S2 is a big step up.

So the general consensus here seems to be that cringe comedy is bad to abhorrent. So I wish to post an open question. If it is so bad, why is it seemingly used so often?

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:35 am

bz316 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:52 am2) I'm very, very grateful the episode at no point ever suggests that Mariner is doing all this because she has secret feelings for Boimler. I'm especially grateful that in their big blow-up argument, Boimler does not accuse her of being jealous of Barbara, but instead accuses her of doing all this to avoid simply admitting she was wrong. The show has thus far done a great job of demonstrating that, however toxic their relationship might be, it is purely platonic, thus avoiding the tiresome "opposite-sex leads must hook up" trope we see so often.

The irony is that I actually think that she did do that. Here's the thing, normally I would be against such a argument that she's secretly motivated by jealousy because that plot is trite and overused. Except here's the reverse: if she DIDN'T do it out of jealousy, it's MUCH MUCH WORSE. Because if she did it out of jealousy, Mariner is letting her own taking Boimler for granted and missed opportunities affect her.

If she DIDNT do it out of jealousy, she thinks Boimler is SO pathetic and SO disgusting that even in the utopian Star Trek future that literally NO ONE would date him unless they were a vampire. That's outright HATRED of a person.

And making it purely platonic just makes it MORE toxic and abusive.

You make a strong case.

What's the point of Mariner/Boimler's toxic relationship? Is the show gonna crumble into dust if Mariner would stop being such an unpleasant character? Cause she's anything but the heart of the show. If anything she's an anti-heart, one of vacuum of misery and unpleasantness.

As a side note, the whole TR-88 subplot is a waste of time. There's absolutely no reason why the Cerritos can't update their old tools to the latest tech since they all have replicators, and the whole "this is a less competent ship so their technology is subpar" is just lazy writing, as replicator have never been shown to vary in quality, especially since this happens after the Dominion War when Starfleet would have had to upgrade their entire fleet. And there's no reason why the TR-88 cant' be replicated, since that defeats the entire purpose of having adaptable technology. If anything, it would have been funnier had at the end of the episode the titular ship got the TR-88s, as another reason why the Cerritos had a crew exchange with the Vancouver was to update their systems to the latest version, with Tendi and Rutherford being so overworked didn't realize that and instead tried everything to get their hands on the new tech, which would have been funnier.
"You know we too have replicators, right? That can replicate stuff, right?" - Boimler, probably

Nealithi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:27 pm So the general consensus here seems to be that cringe comedy is bad to abhorrent. So I wish to post an open question. If it is so bad, why is it seemingly used so often?

I find people only identify cringe comedy when they don't like it. Thus, all "examples" of cringe comedy are awful, despite there existing good comedy that fits the definition.

Mariner is envious and jealous of Boimler, because no matter how much the universe shits on him he still always holds out hope and bounces back. She hates that, but also loves and covets that attitude for herself, because somewhere along the way the universe shit on her and she couldn't bounce back. She just engages in empty hedonism to try and pretend she is able to do it. She keeps trying to see if she can break him, but also she keeps wanting to see him be okay at the same time. Even Harry Kim is not a big a loser as Mariner is, and at least Harry isn't one as a lifestyle choice.