Sfdebris.net

The thing that the Delta Flyer always reminds me of is Voyager's aeroshuttle. Oh? What? You don't remember the aeroshuttle? Well no matter. Its this thing on the underside of the primary hull that is meant to be similar to the Captain's Yacht from Insurrection:



Why did we never see it? No one knows. Was it never there? Seems unlikely although it could have been arriving on Tuesday. Was it destroyed in Caretaker? Also unlikely as everything is instantly repairable on Voyager. Maybe they never needed it? Not even as an escape pod? Doesn't ring true.

I'm sure that is a way to explain it. Just amuses me that the producers went to all of the trouble to integrate this as a notable feature into the ship and never did anything with it.

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 1:50 pm I'm sure that is a way to explain it. Just amuses me that the producers went to all of the trouble to integrate this as a notable feature into the ship and never did anything with it.

Well, it's like the Calypso. What never heard of the calypso either? Well, that was the yacht on the Enterprise-D. Why was it there and never used? Presumably because the ship designer thought it was a good idea. Then it was never used because it would cost too much to make shots of the launch.

Apparently they only actually considered using the Aeroshuttle during/after Insurrection, which was part of the reason they decided against using it (Berman thought it would takeaway from the scene). Whether that's valid is up to you, but I'm more inclined to say it's for the best, because the only good excuse I can come up with to suddenly have this shuttle is because it required a software update that only came out a year after Voyager got lost.

Chuck brought up a good point in this review: was the probe carrying something so super, super important that it was mission critical to retrieve it? If not, they should've blown it up, either by shooting it or by remote activating a self-destruct mechanism. It' an unmanned probe, those things are supposed to be disposable by design.

The whole episode could have been about finishing and upgrading the aeroshuttle. Paris even renaming it Delta Flyer because Aeroshuttle sucks.

Delta Flyer doesn't even fit through the doors of shuttle bay. The Delta Flyer interior specifically the back doesn't match up. Too large for the exterior.

The Aeroshuttle would have worked out better logically. The only issue is creating new shots for the Aeroshuttle undocking and docking into Voyager. And of course what Voyager looks like without the shuttle itself. Though that could be fixed if they included some automatic doors closing after the aero shuttle undocks.

Really, once you go past this episode, the Delta Flyer and Aeroshuttle becomes almost interchangeable.

Given the probe can apparently survive in atmospheric pressures that destroy any ship approaching the same depth, apparently Voyager used all their most durable materials building that probe, and really want that stuff back.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 4:14 pm

The Aeroshuttle would have worked out better logically. The only issue is creating new shots for the Aeroshuttle undocking and docking into Voyager. And of course what Voyager looks like without the shuttle itself. Though that could be fixed if they included some automatic doors closing after the aero shuttle undocks.

Or just have the ship establishing shots be from an angle that doesn't show the shuttle docking port. Which, given it is positioned on the underside of the bedpan, should not have been hard.

CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 11:26 am

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 4:14 pm

The Aeroshuttle would have worked out better logically. The only issue is creating new shots for the Aeroshuttle undocking and docking into Voyager. And of course what Voyager looks like without the shuttle itself. Though that could be fixed if they included some automatic doors closing after the aero shuttle undocks.

Or just have the ship establishing shots be from an angle that doesn't show the shuttle docking port. Which, given it is positioned on the underside of the bedpan, should not have been hard.

That too. Plenty of shots of that.

I know this isn't a holodeck malfunction story, but like so many other episodes it does bring up just how ridiculously unsafe the holodecks are. It will simulate pretty much anything you want, and the only thing preventing it from eviscerating you is an optional setting that can be switched off at will, with only a single warning. You would think some sort of authorization would be required, and that an alert would be sent to someone outside the holodeck (security at the very least). Given that the simulation is a danger to the person running it, to anyone entering it, and potentially to the ship itself if they simulate something dangerous enough (we've seen holographic artillery blow out the wall in the killing game), the safeties being turned off should probably be a bigger deal.

Of course, the fact that the holodeck even needs safety protocols is ridiculous. I mean, do we really need to program adversaries in simulations to try to actually want to hurt and kill you, with weapons that actually will unless the holodeck pulls its punches at the last second? Why? Wouldn't it make more sense to program the NPCs to be actors playing the part perfectly but without the actual intent to harm? Imagine being able to just say "cut, take 5 everyone" and all the characters in the simulation relax and switch to being friendly actors discussing their performances, which would even give you a chance to give them additional direction. And why would you not also program it to have weapons and dangers that only look dangerous? Do you really need to simulate a bullet when you can simply create a muzzle flash and a whizzing sound along the trajectory, and then have any holographic item that would have been hit react as though hit? Why create real dangers at all when the only time it would make a difference is when something goes wrong and real people are getting hurt?

Honestly, the only way the holodeck makes sense is if the designers considered self harm and deadly games to be legitimate use cases. B'elanna and the Hirogen were just using the technology as intended.

Makeitstop wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 5:38 pm
Of course, the fact that the holodeck even needs safety protocols is ridiculous. I mean, do we really need to program adversaries in simulations to try to actually want to hurt and kill you, with weapons that actually will unless the holodeck pulls its punches at the last second? Why? Wouldn't it make more sense to program the NPCs to be actors playing the part perfectly but without the actual intent to harm?

I'm not sure if it would, at least to a point. There are shades of grey involved at any rate. Could you have a meaningful boxing match on the holodeck without getting hurt? That's not the same as having no safety measures in place either though (a boxing match not being the same as someone shooting you, and whatever measures it's got shouldn't let a heavyweight hologram punch at full force a five year old who's snuck in).

Riedquat wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 8:38 pm

Makeitstop wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 5:38 pm
Of course, the fact that the holodeck even needs safety protocols is ridiculous. I mean, do we really need to program adversaries in simulations to try to actually want to hurt and kill you, with weapons that actually will unless the holodeck pulls its punches at the last second? Why? Wouldn't it make more sense to program the NPCs to be actors playing the part perfectly but without the actual intent to harm?

I'm not sure if it would, at least to a point. There are shades of grey involved at any rate. Could you have a meaningful boxing match on the holodeck without getting hurt? That's not the same as having no safety measures in place either though (a boxing match not being the same as someone shooting you, and whatever measures it's got shouldn't let a heavyweight hologram punch at full force a five year old who's snuck in).

Fair point. Although I would think that a boxing program would be designed to simulate an opponent that doesn't actually want to injure or kill. The NPC should have enough restraint to avoid inflicting serious injury without the need for an external mechanism to nerf a would-be debilitating blow at the last second. And even if the holodeck controls and safeties are offline, that opponent should be willing to listen when someone says time out.

The way most holodeck episodes are written, any kid could walk in and access their dad's boxing program, and as soon as the safeties turn off because someone sneezed in a Jeffries tube on the other side of the ship, their opponent would break every bone in the poor kid's body while ignoring the ref because he's supposed to be the bad guy boxer you love to hate.

And even ignoring something like boxing, there is probably good reason to be able to have seemingly realistic combat and martial arts experiences which necessarily involve the kinds of forces that can cause at least some injury. Though once again, even a program designed for realistic combat training should be set up in such a way that the opponent isn't actually trying to kill anyone, just trying to teach someone how to fight and protect themselves when faced with danger outside the holodeck.

And even those programs should require some level of access and acknowledgement of the danger from anyone who is using them. And yes, on top of everything else, they should have safety protocols as a redundancy. They shouldn't need them, but they should be there just in case. And they should not be something that is easily switched off.

Look at it this way, if you were a parent with access to a holodeck, would you ever bring your kid into a program like the one in a fistful of datas? A program where there are characters that are absolutely ready to assault, kidnap, and murder your child? Even without the track record of failure we see in the show, I'd be extremely reluctant to trust my child's life to it. Especially when there is no good reason to not have the NPCs in every program (be they fictional characters, competitors, instructors, or sex toys) play the role of someone who exists to serve, and who prioritizes the safety, well being, and entertainment or education of the user.