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SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:47 pm
by clearspira
I have always found Osiris to be a rather interesting character as far as System Lords go (because lets be honest, only Apophis and Ba'al actually have characters to speak of) and is someone who would be written very differently today with the whole ''gender'' element thrown in there. The Stargate wiki refers to ''her'' with the pronoun ''him'' interestingly enough. But as far as I am aware, the show uses the pronoun ''her'' throughout - even though from ''her'' backstory, ''he'' would make more sense? But then again, the show never really acknowledges the gender change besides the first time ''she'' turns up at the System Lord conference and gets mildly sexually harassed by Zepacna. It never actually states that Osiris changes ''his'' gender or doesn't.
Its all a bit muddled is all i'm saying with no definitive answer either way. Its of its era, I think. A better job would be done today.
Gender identity when it comes to Goa'uld has always been a silly concept anyway as they are asexual beings apart from the Queen - which ISN'T female, its hermaphroditic, with the ability to impregnate its own eggs (forget what we saw with Hathor, that was well and truly retconned out of existance by season 6). I suppose having a preference for an ''innie'' or an ''outie'' makes sense, but it all just seems a bit ''human-centric'' that these worms would follow our gender binary at all.
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:15 pm
by Deledrius
clearspira wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:47 pm
Gender identity when it comes to Goa'uld has always been a silly concept anyway as they are asexual beings apart from the Queen - which ISN'T female, its hermaphroditic, with the ability to impregnate its own eggs (forget what we saw with Hathor, that was well and truly retconned out of existance by season 6). I suppose having a preference for an ''innie'' or an ''outie'' makes sense, but it all just seems a bit ''human-centric'' that these worms would follow our gender binary at all.
It could be as much a fashion for them as anything else. They all generally appear to have some level of vanity, and choose based on that. Combine that with how much they lean on the divine symbol motifs among their slaves and subjects, there could be very real reasons for them to have gender identities that has nothing to do with the way we think of it for humans.
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:10 am
by McAvoy
clearspira wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:47 pm
I have always found Osiris to be a rather interesting character as far as System Lords go (because lets be honest, only Apophis and Ba'al actually have characters to speak of) and is someone who would be written very differently today with the whole ''gender'' element thrown in there. The Stargate wiki refers to ''her'' with the pronoun ''him'' interestingly enough. But as far as I am aware, the show uses the pronoun ''her'' throughout - even though from ''her'' backstory, ''he'' would make more sense? But then again, the show never really acknowledges the gender change besides the first time ''she'' turns up at the System Lord conference and gets mildly sexually harassed by Zepacna. It never actually states that Osiris changes ''his'' gender or doesn't.
Its all a bit muddled is all i'm saying with no definitive answer either way. Its of its era, I think. A better job would be done today.
Gender identity when it comes to Goa'uld has always been a silly concept anyway as they are asexual beings apart from the Queen - which ISN'T female, its hermaphroditic, with the ability to impregnate its own eggs (forget what we saw with Hathor, that was well and truly retconned out of existance by season 6). I suppose having a preference for an ''innie'' or an ''outie'' makes sense, but it all just seems a bit ''human-centric'' that these worms would follow our gender binary at all.
Aphopis didn't have much a character honestly. He behaved more or less like other Gou'ald System Lords. He didn't even change much after he took over Sokar's forces either.
Maybe you are thinking of Anubis?
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:06 am
by Fianna
Well, you could also phrase that as "the other Gou'ald System Lords behave more or less like Apophis". As far as the TV version of the franchise goes, Apophis came first.
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:05 pm
by Sir Will
Deledrius wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:15 pm
clearspira wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:47 pm
Gender identity when it comes to Goa'uld has always been a silly concept anyway as they are asexual beings apart from the Queen - which ISN'T female, its hermaphroditic, with the ability to impregnate its own eggs (forget what we saw with Hathor, that was well and truly retconned out of existance by season 6). I suppose having a preference for an ''innie'' or an ''outie'' makes sense, but it all just seems a bit ''human-centric'' that these worms would follow our gender binary at all.
It could be as much a fashion for them as anything else. They all generally appear to have some level of vanity, and choose based on that. Combine that with how much they lean on the divine symbol motifs among their slaves and subjects, there could be very real reasons for them to have gender identities that has nothing to do with the way we think of it for humans.
Interesting points. Good explanation.
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:36 am
by McAvoy
Fianna wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:06 am
Well, you could also phrase that as "the other Gou'ald System Lords behave more or less like Apophis". As far as the TV version of the franchise goes, Apophis came first.
True.
Or behave how Ra did in the movie.
If you watch the series, Ba'al really is the only one that shows anything past the stereotypical Villian trope.
Anubis is only slightly better than the rest with the combination of being half ascended, knowing the rules sort of thing. But when he is burning out his human hosts he is still behaving like the other System Lords.
Maybe you could give him something in that diner scene thing Daniel was in when talking to Anubis.
Yeah Anubis has more going for him compared to let's say Chronos or Apophis. But in the end, he still feels like he is still going through similar motions as other System Lords.
Compared to Ba'al who infiltrated Earth. Made himself into a business man. Was devious. Made clones to make it even more difficult to kill him. Didn't behave at all like a System Lord besides his initial appearance.
That and on a one on one level he behaved a whole lot different than the others.
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:40 am
by Sir Will
Ba'al was fantastic.
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:31 am
by Fianna
I guess part of the issue is, whatever personality potential Goa'uld might have, they all they have the same aloof, arrogant image they want to present. The times we get something more individual out of a Goa'uld generally come when things have gone badly for them and they have to interact with people as *(shudder)* equals.
Even Ba'al was a bit more generic prior to the fall of the System Lords; it was seeing the galaxy become human dominated that forced them to drop most of the haughty overlord act (they even stopped doing the Voice most of the time).
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 7:49 am
by Sir Will
It DOES help when they stop doing the voice.
Re: SG-1: Revelations
Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:30 am
by Swiftbow
clearspira wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:47 pm
I have always found Osiris to be a rather interesting character as far as System Lords go (because lets be honest, only Apophis and Ba'al actually have characters to speak of) and is someone who would be written very differently today with the whole ''gender'' element thrown in there. The Stargate wiki refers to ''her'' with the pronoun ''him'' interestingly enough. But as far as I am aware, the show uses the pronoun ''her'' throughout - even though from ''her'' backstory, ''he'' would make more sense? But then again, the show never really acknowledges the gender change besides the first time ''she'' turns up at the System Lord conference and gets mildly sexually harassed by Zepacna. It never actually states that Osiris changes ''his'' gender or doesn't.
Its all a bit muddled is all i'm saying with no definitive answer either way. Its of its era, I think. A better job would be done today.
Gender identity when it comes to Goa'uld has always been a silly concept anyway as they are asexual beings apart from the Queen - which ISN'T female, its hermaphroditic, with the ability to impregnate its own eggs (forget what we saw with Hathor, that was well and truly retconned out of existance by season 6). I suppose having a preference for an ''innie'' or an ''outie'' makes sense, but it all just seems a bit ''human-centric'' that these worms would follow our gender binary at all.
Osiris had always used male hosts until he took Sarah. Sarah is a woman, so Osiris was effectively female from then on. The Goa'uld themselves don't have human genders, so their identity is based on the humans they're in. (Similar thing happened with Jolinar... who was usually female but hid in a male host before Carter got a mouthful. Carter later called Jolinar "he" to Martouf's amusement.)
You're not quite right about the Goa'uld queens, though. They CAN fertilize their own eggs, but that essentially makes clones. They more frequently mate with other Goa'ulds in order to increase genetic diversity. They can do this either naturally or inside human hosts. (It is an open question whether two Queens could mate with each other. I'm guessing no... though even if they CAN, their egos would most likely prevent it.)
Klorel, for example, WAS Apophis' son. The mother was the Amaunet (the Queen Goa'uld inside Shar're).
It would have been an interesting idea if it was possible for a regular Goa'uld to BECOME a Queen. One would wonder if the Tok'Ra would research such a possibility after Stargate: Continuum in order to save their race.