Sfdebris.net

Video here: http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d569.php

Can I point out again just how big of assholes the Prophets are? Here's Kai Winn begging for forgiveness for communing with the Pah Wraiths, which she didn't even do on purpose, and seeking spiritual guidance. They don't talk to her and don't respond to her attempting to commune with them through the orb.

Sure, Winn's a horrible person and a narcissistic asshole, but the one thing she has going for her is being devout. The problems that are going to arise for them in the final episode? Completely preventable if they just pop in now to intervene.

Okay, so maybe the purpose of gods is just to be enigmatic. If that's the case, why am I, as a viewer, supposed to care about them? They do things for mysterious reasons which are unknowable, therefore, no reason to get attached to whatever is going on with them, right? I can't understand their motivations or their plans, so whatever happens to them is also beyond my ability to care.

They are capricious gods, kinda more like Old Testament God, it doesn't care much, doesn't respond much, and wants things his way and when it they aren't *bam* flood, salt, famine... Kind of like the weather, which is probably the basis of deity worship historically.

But Kai Winn wasn't faithful, as she was being underhanded and using unsavory methods to get her position.

That she never had a vision was a sign that she shouldn't have been Kai, but she couldn't accept that.

Robovski wrote:They are capricious gods, kinda more like Old Testament God, it doesn't care much, doesn't respond much, and wants things his way and when it they aren't *bam* flood, salt, famine... Kind of like the weather, which is probably the basis of deity worship historically.

It's not really a concern during the first six seasons where, for the most part, they are just part of the scenery. They're a fairly neutral element, or perhaps a Chekhov's Gun that was fired during the Dominion War arc. We don't really know much about them aside from the fact that the Bajorans have a relationship with them as gods, and we care about the Bajorans. Once there's an actual storyline about their spiritual war being told, though, we're supposed to actually start giving a crap about that plot thread, and that's when you can start attempting to flesh them out. In general, though, they just remain distant and enigmatic despite a storythread which is supposed to draw the audience in to them.

It's just really weak. Their attempt to humanize them created the very ill-advised Sisko's Mom Prophet, which only makes me start asking a ton of very uncomfortable questions and I wish I could forget she existed.

Robovski wrote:They are capricious gods, kinda more like Old Testament God, it doesn't care much, doesn't respond much, and wants things his way and when it they aren't *bam* flood, salt, famine...

So, kinda like a marriage.

You better know what they want even when they don't tell you or you'll soon find yourself without a house and destitute.

Nevix wrote:But Kai Winn wasn't faithful, as she was being underhanded and using unsavory methods to get her position.

That she never had a vision was a sign that she shouldn't have been Kai, but she couldn't accept that.

I tend to see Winn as someone who was once sincerely devout, but became as much about the ends justifying the means as the more radical elements of resistance by the time she came out the other side of the Occupation. She had survived the trials of the Occupation, therefore she was meant to be Kai, and any steps she took to achieve that goal and maintain her position were justified.

ScreamingDoom wrote:

Robovski wrote:They are capricious gods, kinda more like Old Testament God, it doesn't care much, doesn't respond much, and wants things his way and when it they aren't *bam* flood, salt, famine...

So, kinda like a marriage.

You better know what they want even when they don't tell you or you'll soon find yourself without a house and destitute.

Stealing Chuck's material now? I think he let you have it though, I think the Romans were going "Oh, not that old joke."

But in all seriousness I'm getting divorced, so it's not like it's not true...

Kai Winn is akin to a character in a New Testament parable (e.g. a Pharisee). Her conversation with Kira in this episode tells you a lot about her priorities. She would like to be devout, but not enough to set aside her own lust for power. Kai Winn turning to the dark side isn't a reversal or descent so much as a fulfillment of her character arc. She was the same way from the beginning of the series, with only a few somewhat redeeming moments in-between. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that she was never devout.

bronnt wrote:Their attempt to humanize them created the very ill-advised Sisko's Mom Prophet, which only makes me start asking a ton of very uncomfortable questions and I wish I could forget she existed.

I'd be very interested to see what Chuck has to say about that once he reviews the S7 opening two-parter. Even TVTropes notes this twist on Sisko's life is full of unfortunate implications - for both Sarah and Joseph.

Archanubis wrote:I'd be very interested to see what Chuck has to say about that once he reviews the S7 opening two-parter. Even TVTropes notes this twist on Sisko's life is full of unfortunate implications - for both Sarah and Joseph.

Everything about that was ill-advised. I'm not sure where the idea came from but the amount of problems you see it creating demonstrate that they should tossed this idea in the dumpster. One of the most basic problems is you had a Prophet-spirit who was able to live and pass as a human being for at least a couple of years. This means that she should know how to explain things to Sisko in a much more effective manner, like, "Hey, if you get married, you're just going to make Cassidy a widow in a couple of months. Also, someone really should start paying attention to what Kai Winn is doing these days." But they continue to be abstract and enigmatic even though they've crossed the boundaries of what an abstract deity should be doing.

I'll breeze past the Unfortunate Implications aspect for a second to point out that they could have avoided that by just having Sisko's birth mom still be alive somewhere. That way he could contact her and let her inform us that there was no ickiness involved. But their idea for how Sisko could plausibly have never known about her meant that she had to have died a long time ago, which should have been another clue about how big of an asspull this idea was.