DS9: Tacking into the Wind

[rickgriffin]

Okay this is the episode I've been waiting for because I think Ezri's truth bomb is basically her best line in the show?? And to a certain degree I think Chuck's point is deflecting from the issue at hand. Whether or not Martok is only a short-term solution, it is also PROBABLY the only solution that even has a chance of providing a long-term one, so the whole tangent about whether or not an actually honorable government can exist I think is a moot point.

Gowron is imminently making horrible decisions for petty reasons; even if Gowron's strategy, the age-old tactic of making all his rivals dead, WORKED, that by itself is a weakening of the empire. Martok is not a long term solution? Gowron isn't seriously considering how to effectively win this war in order to acquire short-term personal gains. Just because his actions are politically shrewd doesn't make him an effective governor either.

Ezri's point, I think, is that Martok's concerns about whether or not Gowron's actions demand he be deposed, are unfounded. It's not a matter of honor because politics DON'T care about (this centuries-old tradition of) honor, and this pretense of honor is keeping the "Good" klingons from stepping up and doing what needs to be done.

Would it solve all problems forever? Of course not. But I don't think there's much use shrugging your shoulders and going "oh well, whatcha gonna do? Politics, am I right?" especially when like Worf you're in a position to do something about it.

[FakeGeekGirl]

I agree. I really love this scene, and if something like that had happened earlier I would have liked Ezri's character a lot more. It was insightful and it was brutally honest and it differentiated her from Jadzia.

[rickgriffin]

That was the other thing I wanted to mention, thanks for reminding me. Jadzia would have never stated the truth bomb like that because she was too involved (possibly a little infatuated) with the empire. Ezri, on the other hand, has all the knowledge of the empire that Curzon and Jadzia had but doesn't actually feel intimate with it and so is in a unique position to actually criticize it. So it's basically a perfect use of Ezri's character there really could have been more of.

[CareerKnight]

It is probably Ezri's best bit of dialogue (Kira's scene with Damar from the episode is also great). I also think Chuck's point was a bit moot given the war (Gowron isn't just bad for the Empire, he's bad for the Alpha Quadrant) and that while some backroom deals/favor for a favor is necessary for a government to function that doesn't mean the Empire and by extension Gowron haven't crossed the line into full on corruption a long time ago.

[Tonesthegeek]

Interesting that Chuck brought up the potential long term issues with Martok as chancellor. While not strictly cannon, the timeline for Star Trek Online mentions that Martok would many years later be challenged by the Son of Lursa from the house of Duras (it was established she was pregnant near the end of TNG so it's likely her son was born before the events of 'Generations') that son would defeat Martok and the Duras Family would indeed rule the empire and surprise surprise, war would break out between them and the federation. Worf at the time was a general in the Empire and Martok's right hand man, after Martok died, his son Drax became head of the family and Worf now advises him as they're now in a Blood feud with the Duras to reclaim the empire and end the war. So in a way, there were some good times during Martok's reign as chancellor but a McGuffin from late TNG would come back to mess things up.

[fundefined]

IMO Tacking into the Wind is easily the best episode of the multipart ending. Ezri finally gets a great scene to differentiate herself from Jadzia, the Klingon's finally get called out for how backwards and unstable their culture is, and Damarr's character development in this single episode is a great culmination of the overall Cardassian backstory with Bajor.

I think Chuck is really underselling this episode. Also its such a bad decision to kill Damarr after this episode. Maybe the writers didn't want the Cardassians to lose their character in case of future conflicts being necessary for the next generation but Damarr's rebuilding of Cardassia would have been the perfect capstone to the series.

[CareerKnight]

Interesting that Chuck brought up the potential long term issues with Martok as chancellor. While not strictly cannon, the timeline for Star Trek Online mentions that Martok would many years later be challenged by the Son of Lursa from the house of Duras (it was established she was pregnant near the end of TNG so it's likely her son was born before the events of 'Generations') that son would defeat Martok and the Duras Family would indeed rule the empire and surprise surprise, war would break out between them and the federation. Worf at the time was a general in the Empire and Martok's right hand man, after Martok died, his son Drax became head of the family and Worf now advises him as they're now in a Blood feud with the Duras to reclaim the empire and end the war. So in a way, there were some good times during Martok's reign as chancellor but a McGuffin from late TNG would come back to mess things up.

J'mpok kills Martok and becomes chancellor but he has no relation to Duras as far as I can tell. Ja'rod is Lursa's son and one of J'mpok's main allies. Klingons ending the Khitomer Accords in STO mirrors the situation in DS9 except this time the Klingons have more reason to believe there are shapeshifting infiltrators threatening the quadrant, they are proven right, and this time instead of a shapeshifter in the Empire provoking conflict to break up the Klingon Federation alliance, instead they are in the Federation pushing for non action and downplaying the threat to drive the two apart.

[blahface]

I think the politics problem Chuck described is more a problem with first-past-the-post voting. If you don't want to elect a lizard then you need a voting system that doesn't penalize you for voting for a non-lizard.

[PerrySimm]

It's not clear how the Federation conducts elections, but it's pretty clear that the Klingons don't elect their Chancellor so much as acquiesce to the strongest claim within the bounds of their traditions.

[Durandal_1707]

I think the politics problem Chuck described is more a problem with first-past-the-post voting. If you don't want to elect a lizard then you need a voting system that doesn't penalize you for voting for a non-lizard.

But that's Catch-22. How are you going to change the voting system in a way that will be disadvantageous to the lizards, when the lizards run the legislature?

Generally speaking, you have to have social conditions arise where changing the system is the least-dangerous path for the lizards. They see it in their own best interest to change the voting system and do so, even if it costs them some power, because to refuse to reform the system opens them up to an increasing risk of losing even more.