DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

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CrypticMirror
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DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by CrypticMirror »

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d573.php

I don't really have much to say about this episode. Obviously any secret agency that acts without proper and open civil oversight needs to be shuttered, not that I'm against secret agencies in principle just they need to have the strongest possible ethics and hold themselves to the highest moral standard as well as having strong oversight in order to prevent them going off the deep end and acting unilaterally on whatever they determine the greater good to be. There is nothing S31 does that more visible Starfleet Intelligence is not already doing on the surveillance and counter-espionage front. I'm also pretty certain that threat of genocide is probably not an above board tool in any war. Apart from anything else, one of the reasons the Dominion is so evil is because they use bioweapons like the Blight and routinely conduct genocide as part of their own wars. If our heroes do the same, are they really heroes and do they deserve to win (hint: no and no).

Also Bashir's superhuman ability to wake himself from mindscape traps was set up in S1's Move Along Home where he tried to scream himself out of it (and indicated he had done so before) but was foiled by that episode merely being a nightmarish existence for the viewer not the characters. :D
bronnt
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by bronnt »

I'm surprised Chuck didn't go more into the whole "Genocide" thing. I've always felt that it was a crappy addition to the plot-certainly it was interesting, but it also alienated me from the story.

The big problem with it is that it essentially proves that the Changelings were right. They distrust "solids" because solids are always looking to destroy them....and upon discovering changelings, humans almost immediately looked for a way to destroy them. And not just a potential weapon for defensive purposes, but a biological agent that would murder their entire race, even including one of them who is an ally. And this was the work of humans within the Federation, not some more devious element of the Romulan Tal Shiar, but people working within the greatest peace-loving society in the quadrant. Consider how little time passed between discovery of the Changelings and the time Odo was infected-barely over a year, including all the time it took to research and develop this disease and to come up with a plan for infecting them. That's freaking sinister.

Not only that, but there are people actively within the Federation who know about the genocide plan and are quietly endorsing it. They hamper every attempt of Bashir to find a cure for Odo, and in the next episode, the Federation Council will decide "Well, genocide is bad...but even though we have a cure capable of preventing it, we're not going to." It makes it rather difficult to root for the Federation to win the war when they're going to turn a blind eye to the extermination of their enemies.
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Eishtmo
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by Eishtmo »

Did they know the plan was all out genocide when they started it? Not S31, oh they knew, but the people who helped them? I suspect it was more "if they're sick enough, they'll come to us for a cure and peace" type thing. As things went on, then it became "they killed all my friends, let the slime die" or maybe even personal shame so they tried to cover it up. After all, even Sisko could do something against his morals and live with, perhaps others could too.

As for the starting it before the war, perhaps S31 figured it would take root long before open conflict and then the Federation could come and "save" them thus removing war as an option, but things moved in ways they didn't/couldn't predict, or maybe it was just more a hope than anything else.
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by Chaos Sepher »

Feel like Chuck missed a real opportunity in not playing the following bit during their whole heterosexual life partner confession.

youtu.be/-7hjdC8-jbw
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

In addition to the ethical questions about the genocide, was it even the correct thing to do tactically? There were several hints throughout the series that the Vorta were far more competent at running the war than the Founders and the Founders' interference was actually making it worse, and do we have any reason to believe they would have just given up if all the Founders died? And what if they figured out the virus was engineered and came from the Federation? So in the scenario where that virus works a little faster, all the Founders die, and the Vorta figure out where the virus came from: Good job, Section 31, you just pissed them off and did them a tactical favor. Obviously they didn't figure it out since there's no indication of it in the show but that seems like a massive gamble to me.
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by Fixer »

When the Jem'hadar had lost their changeling before, they all committed suicide to atone for their failure in protecting their gods.

Possible that the loss of the changelings would have left the Vorta in charge of a large number of very advanced uncrewed starships.
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Madner Kami
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by Madner Kami »

Fixer wrote:When the Jem'hadar had lost their changeling before, they all committed suicide to atone for their failure in protecting their gods.

Possible that the loss of the changelings would have left the Vorta in charge of a large number of very advanced uncrewed starships.
Most Jem'Hadar have never seen a Founder and in most cases the contact between the Jem'Hadar and the Founders is a... Vorta. And the Vorta have been running the Dominion for ages without much or really any intervention from the Founders to begin with. And if you do not believe a properly established and entrenched bureaucracy can not run a society, then just have a look at Belgium. The country ran for 589 days without a government and nothing happened, literally and figuratively. The country just went on. Same happened in Ancient Rome, after Augustus and Co established a proper bureaucracy, the country easily survived Emperors that had nothing better to do than chase their paranoid dreams all day, not to mention decades of civil strife in absence of proper authorities. The Vorta are the ultimate bureaucracy and whether their gods stand in front of them or are just an abstract construct, doesn't make a difference for their work.
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by bronnt »

Eishtmo wrote:Did they know the plan was all out genocide when they started it? Not S31, oh they knew, but the people who helped them? I suspect it was more "if they're sick enough, they'll come to us for a cure and peace" type thing. As things went on, then it became "they killed all my friends, let the slime die" or maybe even personal shame so they tried to cover it up. After all, even Sisko could do something against his morals and live with, perhaps others could too.

As for the starting it before the war, perhaps S31 figured it would take root long before open conflict and then the Federation could come and "save" them thus removing war as an option, but things moved in ways they didn't/couldn't predict, or maybe it was just more a hope than anything else.
If this sort of subtlety existed within the plan, then the writing should take note of it. Sloan had a lot of dialogue to defend his actions or explain his rationale during this episode, which is where it would have been easy to say, "Well the idea was to use the threat of extermination to give us leverage to bring them to the peace table," but it never comes up. As far as the writing is concerned, and we're asked to accept, is that the plan is wipe out all the Founders with a biological agent. It's just like the Obsidian Order's plan to wipe out all the Founders with spaceships and lasers.

Remember how horrifying it was that the Founders would infect Odo with a disease to force him to seek them out? Ironically, Odo was ALREADY carrying a disease that the Federation had infected with, in the hopes that he would seek out the Founders. Bashir himself points out that at least 73 people had to be involved in the plan to infect Odo with a deadly agent, not all of them Section 31. It's a bit sinister that you can find so many people willing to turn a blind eye to evil and have none of them so overwrought with guilt that they never confess. This is why most actual conspiracy theories are bunk-the more people involved, the greater the probability of someone involved deciding they don't want in.
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BunBun299
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by BunBun299 »

Which is why I think Bashir was being overly paranoid in his calculations. While all those people may have been involved in some way, most were probably just carrying out orders, having no idea where they came from, or what the true intention of those orders was.

Like the saying goes, 3 people can keep a secret, only if 2 of them are dead.

As for Bashir's control of his vitals, that doesn't bother me even slightly. It might if he was changing his vitals so that a tricorder picked him up as a Vulcan, but for something simple like a limited control of his heart rate, that's standard for enhanced people in fiction.
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Re: DS:9 "Extreme Measures"

Post by FakeGeekGirl »

Madner Kami wrote:
Fixer wrote:When the Jem'hadar had lost their changeling before, they all committed suicide to atone for their failure in protecting their gods.

Possible that the loss of the changelings would have left the Vorta in charge of a large number of very advanced uncrewed starships.
Most Jem'Hadar have never seen a Founder and in most cases the contact between the Jem'Hadar and the Founders is a... Vorta. And the Vorta have been running the Dominion for ages without much or really any intervention from the Founders to begin with. And if you do not believe a properly established and entrenched bureaucracy can not run a society, then just have a look at Belgium. The country ran for 589 days without a government and nothing happened, literally and figuratively. The country just went on. Same happened in Ancient Rome, after Augustus and Co established a proper bureaucracy, the country easily survived Emperors that had nothing better to do than chase their paranoid dreams all day, not to mention decades of civil strife in absence of proper authorities. The Vorta are the ultimate bureaucracy and whether their gods stand in front of them or are just an abstract construct, doesn't make a difference for their work.
Thank you. I understand the whole cut off the head of the snake and the snake will die type mentality, but I felt like it was overly optimistic for dealing with the Dominion, either for the Cardassian / Romulan fleet's "blow up their home world" plan or for the morphogenic virus.

It's possible they might have all committed suicide in dismay, but I think they would have decided to keep the Dominion running for the return of the Changeling infants that had been sent out, personally. Or just long enough to get revenge if they had figured out who killed their gods. Like I said ... it just seems like a massive gamble on Section 31's part especially since Julian was able to figure it out in like a day. Granted he had some additional inside knowledge but even so ... I think as soon as they realized Odo was infected too the Dominion could have figured out he was patient zero and it's not a far stretch from that to the fact the Federation infected him on purpose.
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