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TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:15 pm
by Nobody700
Before I get into the elephant of the room, SF debris did miss something I'm shocked he didn't comment on. That these two have been fighting for 50,000 years. 50,000 years of fighting each other across the Galaxy, what an insane number. Imagine chasing a man for 50,000 years, I'm SHOCKED he just never said fuck it, returned home, and demand someone else do it. It makes Lokai stating that his people in the past have been slaves comes off insane, because now we know their oppression happened for god knows how long. Are Bele and Lokai unique? Are they hundreds of thousands years old? Are these people one of the FIRST races to form? The number is just ludicrous and I can barely wrap my head around it.
Now, to what everyone talks about with the episode. White on the right side, black on the left side, and vice versa. Many people mistake this for a simple white opressing black people tale... and they aren't wrong, cause much of Lokai's argument fits very well with Native Americans and Black peoples struggles in America (Remember, american writers, we can talk about the bigotry of every culture but this is MURICA), but the thing is... this was an American vs Soviet Union story. The race stuff actually came in later... and for worse for the story. In a more modern lens, I can see Lokai arguing his people have been victims and Bele is a racist bigot, but he has proof Lokai's deeds killed innocents. This would make the crew wonder if terrorism against tyranny is something they can support. Bele's arguments that Lokai is a charisma genius... are lies, because he can't comprehend that people will recognize he's clearly in the wrong. Bele himself, despite being the victim, shows he's not free from bigotry himself. Honestly, if I had to write the episode...
I'd end with them coming to the planet, two beam up... and it's two men who are shades of black and white, rather than split. Lokai and Bele are aghast, as the two men explain that in the 50,000 years since, they have gotten past their bigotries and things have changed. Bele and Lokai look at the new world, are told NO ONE is black and white on either sides but now mixed... and the both of them retreat to a shuttle, fight to death for it, and perish. Neither man can understand why, and Spock and Kirk explain to them that they are glad neither can understand this level of hate anymore. It's something that Humans and Vulcans have yet to truly get over, and that all traces of this hatred are over. The enterprise leaves orbit, and Spock can note he feels bad that Bele is dead, having been a victim all his life and couldn't learn to get past that belief, and Kirk says he feels bad for Lokai. He was the villain, but that was from generations of bigotry teaching him lies. Villain and Victim, neither could believe that things could be better and when shown they did... both rather be dead than remove the roles forced on them.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:42 pm
by pilight
I always just assumed Cheron orbits fast and thus has very short years.
BTW, the title is "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". I assume Chuck posting "this" instead of "that" on the episode page is a meta joke.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 10:50 pm
by clearspira
pilight wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:42 pm
I always just assumed Cheron orbits fast and thus has very short years.
In the same way that fans like to think Janice Lester is a nutter instead of ''actually'' being banned from commanding a starship, Charon's years being radically shorter is the best explanation but not the intended one.
I have never known Star Trek to acknowledge time as being anything else other than what is on Earth. I think it is exactly what is implied which is just ridiculous really. As much as we may roll our eyes at the likes of Farscape or OG Battlestar Galactica when they make up new words for the passage of time, it is very much for a reason. These words can mean whatever the writer wants them to mean because they are never actually defined. And amusingly enough, Star Trek was savvy enough to work this out when they replaced bytes for quads.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 11:03 pm
by clearspira
Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:15 pm
Before I get into the elephant of the room, SF debris did miss something I'm shocked he didn't comment on. That these two have been fighting for 50,000 years. 50,000 years of fighting each other across the Galaxy, what an insane number. Imagine chasing a man for 50,000 years, I'm SHOCKED he just never said fuck it, returned home, and demand someone else do it. It makes Lokai stating that his people in the past have been slaves comes off insane, because now we know their oppression happened for god knows how long. Are Bele and Lokai unique? Are they hundreds of thousands years old? Are these people one of the FIRST races to form? The number is just ludicrous and I can barely wrap my head around it.
Now, to what everyone talks about with the episode. White on the right side, black on the left side, and vice versa. Many people mistake this for a simple white opressing black people tale... and they aren't wrong, cause much of Lokai's argument fits very well with Native Americans and Black peoples struggles in America (Remember, american writers, we can talk about the bigotry of every culture but this is MURICA), but the thing is... this was an American vs Soviet Union story. The race stuff actually came in later... and for worse for the story. In a more modern lens, I can see Lokai arguing his people have been victims and Bele is a racist bigot, but he has proof Lokai's deeds killed innocents. This would make the crew wonder if terrorism against tyranny is something they can support. Bele's arguments that Lokai is a charisma genius... are lies, because he can't comprehend that people will recognize he's clearly in the wrong. Bele himself, despite being the victim, shows he's not free from bigotry himself. Honestly, if I had to write the episode...
I'd end with them coming to the planet, two beam up... and it's two men who are shades of black and white, rather than split. Lokai and Bele are aghast, as the two men explain that in the 50,000 years since, they have gotten past their bigotries and things have changed. Bele and Lokai look at the new world, are told NO ONE is black and white on either sides but now mixed... and the both of them retreat to a shuttle, fight to death for it, and perish. Neither man can understand why, and Spock and Kirk explain to them that they are glad neither can understand this level of hate anymore. It's something that Humans and Vulcans have yet to truly get over, and that all traces of this hatred are over. The enterprise leaves orbit, and Spock can note he feels bad that Bele is dead, having been a victim all his life and couldn't learn to get past that belief, and Kirk says he feels bad for Lokai. He was the villain, but that was from generations of bigotry teaching him lies. Villain and Victim, neither could believe that things could be better and when shown they did... both rather be dead than remove the roles forced on them.
I think your new ending is brilliant and is a scenario that many believe may actually end up happening on Earth. You even capture the typical ''end of episode TOS monologue'' where Kirk and Spock explain to us the moral of the episode.
But yeah, shit, 50,000 years. To answer your question though, the Progenitors and the Iconians from TNG are billions and millions of years older respectively. Star Trek is kind of dumb when it comes to this sort of thing. They are however about the same age as the Ancients from Stargate.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 11:05 pm
by pilight
clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 10:50 pm
pilight wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:42 pm
I always just assumed Cheron orbits fast and thus has very short years.
In the same way that fans like to think Janice Lester is a nutter instead of ''actually'' being banned from commanding a starship, Charon's years being radically shorter is the best explanation but not the intended one.
I realize it wasn't their intent, and it still wouldn't work even if it was. If one of their years was an Earth hour, 50000 years to them would still be 137 years to us. It's just writers not comprehending scale, as often happens in sci-fi.
Janice Lester
is a nutter, regardless of whether she was actually banned from command or why.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 6:40 pm
by CharlesPhipps
It should be noted also that he says, "thousands of years ago" they were slaves.
So it implies it's actually quite recent to them.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 9:03 pm
by Nobody700
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 6:40 pm
It should be noted also that he says, "thousands of years ago" they were slaves.
So it implies it's actually quite recent to them.
GOD I forgot that. Again... what is the LIFE SPAN of these people? Is 50,000 years 50 years to them, or is it a month? When someone said the Iconians were older, here's the thing, we know they were around then. These guys, we don't. For all we know, Lokai's grandpa met the Iconians... or worse, LOKAI HIMSELF MET THEM!
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 4:27 am
by CharlesPhipps
I think the original episode was a lot more high concept and they were going to be an angel and demon in appearance with the suggestion being like Babylon Five or Childhood's End that they inspired Earth's conception of these things.
So these were meant to be millions of years old probably.
And also some emphasis on the line that the angelic (ex-slave) one would be able to persuade people with his fancy talk of equality.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 4:40 pm
by clearspira
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 4:27 am
I think the original episode was a lot more high concept and they were going to be an angel and demon in appearance with the suggestion being like Babylon Five or Childhood's End that they inspired Earth's conception of these things.
So these were meant to be millions of years old probably.
And also some emphasis on the line that the angelic (ex-slave) one would be able to persuade people with his fancy talk of equality.
That sounds like a 1/10 episode. I'm not even being hyperbolic - an angel vs a devil with TOS standard make-up would have been in the same league as space hippies, Kirk reciting the Constitution from memory despite the fact that he isn't from the United States, and ''Brain? What is brain?''
And if they kept the Civil Rights allegory? Oof. That is SNL skit parody level, right there.
Whoever decided to switch that to ''black on one side, white on the other'' deserves a medal.
Religion and Star Trek does not mix. I cannot think of a single example where it has been done well. Even the Prophets do have glaring issues, mostly surrounding the Pah Wraiths.
Re: TOS: Let this be your last battlefield
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 8:16 pm
by Madner Kami
clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 4:40 pm
Religion and Star Trek does not mix. I cannot think of a single example where it has been done well. Even the Prophets do have glaring issues, mostly surrounding the Pah Wraiths.
Most or at least a good number of Q's episodes come to mind, when I think about Trek and Religion done right.
SciFi overall has a very strained relationship with religions. Both themes just do not mix well, for what I find are obvious reasons. You just can't talk about religion without taking an innate stance on it. Only one can be true, so either your subject is intrinsically wrong or everybody else is. Or indeed, every religion is shown to be the sham they are, be that through superstitious misunderstanding or intentional abuse.