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I'm moving through TNG and jus watched this a couple of days ago.

As much as I like this episode, one thing irks me is that Starfleet doesn't seem to learn from this. There's no fallout that we know of from this event.

Because what Data showed here was that he's a major security breach. I always thought it was not a smart move to post Data on a ship meant to go into harm's way, because what if he gets captured by a hostile faction? Which did, in fact, happen, twice. The first time was by Kifas Fajo, and all he wanted was Data as part of his collection. The second time would be in Descent, where Data is captured and subverted by Lore. Starfleet should've, by all that is rational and reasonable, posted him at a secure facility, possibly with Starfleet Intelligence, so that he could be utilized in such a way that doesn't pose a significant threat to national security. After this event, he should've gotten immediate orders as soon as they got that kid to a starbase to be assigned to a different post.

Starfleet then ought to have conducted a complete investigation of this event. How Data was able to commandeer a starship, in fact the "Flagship of the Federation," should've been a priority assignment, possibly hauling the Enterprise out of service for the time being, because this situation is that important. The other officers and crew would've been reassigned elsewhere, Picard and his senior staff would've likely been on-hand during the investigation, and Data would've been assigned to something else, like maybe analyzing intelligence gathered on the Romulans or whomever.

But, we didn't get that, or anything clsoe to that. We got nothing. As if Starfleet didn't take this seriously at all, if they even considered the situation. It would've added some believability to the show. What we got was yet another example of how the writers see continuity as something for their own convenience, to be ignored or utilized as needed for their purposes.

(A great case in point on this was I Borg, where we're introduced to Hugh. Picard and company capture a Borg POW, restore it to functionality, and then try to use Borg interconnectedness against them with this invasive virus thingy they were going to. A Logic Bomb, so to speak. Then when the POW adopts an identity, Picard decided to return Hugh to the Collective. That is a crime. However, given how stupid Starfleet tends to be throughout the entire franchise, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there weren't any standing orders regarding the treatment of POWs for Picard to read. Yet, a few episodes later, Necheyev gives Picard a mild chewing out for it, but does nothing about it, when she ought to have placed Picard and his entire senior staff under arrest for it. Oh well!)

All that being said, I often wondered how different this episode might've been if Data and Lore were not "unique." I've never cared for the whole Pinocchio angle, because of their uniqueness in the Star Trek universe, when we've seen androids before on TOS. Granted they were other designs, but surely someone thought there ought to be androids in Starfleet before. Note, I don't consider anything from the Bad Robot version of Star Trek to be canon, in spite of what CBS says. Anyway, I thought it might've been interesting if Data and Lore were just the only two that were gifted sentience among hundreds, even thousands of androids like them serving, by someone like Soong, who wanted to unlock their potential that Starfleet rejected.

MaxWylde wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 5:49 am As much as I like this episode, one thing irks me is that Starfleet doesn't seem to learn from this. There's no fallout that we know of from this event.

Because what Data showed here was that he's a major security breach. I always thought it was not a smart move to post Data on a ship meant to go into harm's way, because what if he gets captured by a hostile faction? Which did, in fact, happen, twice. The first time was by Kifas Fajo, and all he wanted was Data as part of his collection. The second time would be in Descent, where Data is captured and subverted by Lore. Starfleet should've, by all that is rational and reasonable, posted him at a secure facility, possibly with Starfleet Intelligence, so that he could be utilized in such a way that doesn't pose a significant threat to national security. After this event, he should've gotten immediate orders as soon as they got that kid to a starbase to be assigned to a different post.

Starfleet then ought to have conducted a complete investigation of this event. How Data was able to commandeer a starship, in fact the "Flagship of the Federation," should've been a priority assignment, possibly hauling the Enterprise out of service for the time being, because this situation is that important. The other officers and crew would've been reassigned elsewhere, Picard and his senior staff would've likely been on-hand during the investigation, and Data would've been assigned to something else, like maybe analyzing intelligence gathered on the Romulans or whomever.

But, we didn't get that, or anything clsoe to that. We got nothing. As if Starfleet didn't take this seriously at all, if they even considered the situation. It would've added some believability to the show. What we got was yet another example of how the writers see continuity as something for their own convenience, to be ignored or utilized as needed for their purposes.

(A great case in point on this was I Borg, where we're introduced to Hugh. Picard and company capture a Borg POW, restore it to functionality, and then try to use Borg interconnectedness against them with this invasive virus thingy they were going to. A Logic Bomb, so to speak. Then when the POW adopts an identity, Picard decided to return Hugh to the Collective. That is a crime. However, given how stupid Starfleet tends to be throughout the entire franchise, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there weren't any standing orders regarding the treatment of POWs for Picard to read. Yet, a few episodes later, Necheyev gives Picard a mild chewing out for it, but does nothing about it, when she ought to have placed Picard and his entire senior staff under arrest for it. Oh well!)

All that being said, I often wondered how different this episode might've been if Data and Lore were not "unique." I've never cared for the whole Pinocchio angle, because of their uniqueness in the Star Trek universe, when we've seen androids before on TOS. Granted they were other designs, but surely someone thought there ought to be androids in Starfleet before. Note, I don't consider anything from the Bad Robot version of Star Trek to be canon, in spite of what CBS says. Anyway, I thought it might've been interesting if Data and Lore were just the only two that were gifted sentience among hundreds, even thousands of androids like them serving, by someone like Soong, who wanted to unlock their potential that Starfleet rejected.

But Starfleet has a great reason not to relieve people from posts due to being taken over. It happens so often they would not have anyone to crew the ships. There are simply too many energy life forms, invasive computer programs and telepathic entities for them to use such policies.

The one thing everyone points at however is how Starfleet security is a tradition that everyone wants to go away. Worf has to ask permission to post guards in sensitive areas when hostile people will be aboard. There is no security in engineering where the warp core is. And they seem surprised a small child went there to look. "But it is dangerous!" But not dangerous enough to even have a basic restriction in place.

In the future, kids are just much more well behaved, hence the lack of security. They learn not to touch anything shiny as soon as they can walk, followed by lessons in not mourning your dead parents. Then a little pre-school level Calculus.

Three questions:

1) Reset to back-ups. You do have those Picard, right? The Red Dwarf crew worked that one out in the episode M-Corp. It is kind of shameful (as Chuck has pointed out before) just how often Star Trek gets defeated by a British sitcom.

2) If that fails, full hard system reset. They actually do something similar in the episode Contagion with the Iconian virus so i'm not buying 1980s ignorance of computers this time.

3) This episode gives the impression that Picard and Picard alone has full system admin rights. Kind of dangerous isn't it?

clearspira wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 8:45 pm Three questions:

1) Reset to back-ups. You do have those Picard, right? The Red Dwarf crew worked that one out in the episode M-Corp. It is kind of shameful (as Chuck has pointed out before) just how often Star Trek gets defeated by a British sitcom.

2) If that fails, full hard system reset. They actually do something similar in the episode Contagion with the Iconian virus so i'm not buying 1980s ignorance of computers this time.

3) This episode gives the impression that Picard and Picard alone has full system admin rights. Kind of dangerous isn't it?

Look, Riker had it before but than he used it to convince an alien girl he loved her and Picard promised never again.

Nealithi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 9:43 am
But Starfleet has a great reason not to relieve people from posts due to being taken over. It happens so often they would not have anyone to crew the ships. There are simply too many energy life forms, invasive computer programs and telepathic entities for them to use such policies.

The one thing everyone points at however is how Starfleet security is a tradition that everyone wants to go away. Worf has to ask permission to post guards in sensitive areas when hostile people will be aboard. There is no security in engineering where the warp core is. And they seem surprised a small child went there to look. "But it is dangerous!" But not dangerous enough to even have a basic restriction in place.

I remember reading somewhere that Roddenberry himself said that, in the future, people will be entrusted to have integrity, that they would simply have the self-discipline to conduct themselves in a proper fashion, so security isn't always necessary. Well, that's BS. Sure, most people who would serve aboard a warship would have the discipline necessary to conduct themselves....to a point. Even the military can't make someone who's an idiot to become wise. Ask anyone in the military how some soldiers, sailors, airmen or marines behave on a weekend. Gene Roddenberry, of ALL people, ought to know that. He served in the US Army Air Corps during WWII.

But he thinks that people will evolve to have no conflicts with one another, and they'll all be happy citizens of the Federation. I don't know when he went full moonbat, but Hollywood did him no favors in the sanity department.

MaxWylde wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 11:36 pm

Nealithi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 9:43 am
But Starfleet has a great reason not to relieve people from posts due to being taken over. It happens so often they would not have anyone to crew the ships. There are simply too many energy life forms, invasive computer programs and telepathic entities for them to use such policies.

The one thing everyone points at however is how Starfleet security is a tradition that everyone wants to go away. Worf has to ask permission to post guards in sensitive areas when hostile people will be aboard. There is no security in engineering where the warp core is. And they seem surprised a small child went there to look. "But it is dangerous!" But not dangerous enough to even have a basic restriction in place.

I remember reading somewhere that Roddenberry himself said that, in the future, people will be entrusted to have integrity, that they would simply have the self-discipline to conduct themselves in a proper fashion, so security isn't always necessary. Well, that's BS. Sure, most people who would serve aboard a warship would have the discipline necessary to conduct themselves....to a point. Even the military can't make someone who's an idiot to become wise. Ask anyone in the military how some soldiers, sailors, airmen or marines behave on a weekend. Gene Roddenberry, of ALL people, ought to know that. He served in the US Army Air Corps during WWII.

But he thinks that people will evolve to have no conflicts with one another, and they'll all be happy citizens of the Federation. I don't know when he went full moonbat, but Hollywood did him no favors in the sanity department.

See I can fully accept that the Defiant does not need security guards everywhere because the crew know their positions and have their clearances. (Defiant even manages to point out someone did remember to lock the bloody thing so it would be slightly harder to steal.) But on a ship with children from newborn to teens, not having basic restrictions from reaching the engineering core?
It makes remagynona's comment seem less ironic and actually how they think at times.

Nealithi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2024 3:34 pm
See I can fully accept that the Defiant does not need security guards everywhere because the crew know their positions and have their clearances. (Defiant even manages to point out someone did remember to lock the bloody thing so it would be slightly harder to steal.) But on a ship with children from newborn to teens, not having basic restrictions from reaching the engineering core?
It makes remagynona's comment seem less ironic and actually how they think at times.

Yes, depending on the nature of a ship, you probably won't need security guards. I took a tour of the USS Cod, which is a Gato-class Submarine built in WWII, and there wasn't any security guards during her voyages because, well, she's a sub, with not a lot of crew, and the most sensitive thing on the sub was their communications area, where encryption and decryption was handled, and that was handled by officers and sailors specifically trained on this.

But, there is a need for security personnel, as you mentioned in part to police certain areas of a ship, like main engineering. The mission of ship's security is to make sure the ship is not, in any way, hampered from doing its mission by infiltration, subversion, or other threat where a ship's normal abilities, such as its main armament, isn't going to be practical. One aspect of that concerns when a ship arrives in port for liberty or shore leave; whether it goes to a home or foreign port, security is there in case someone who isn't cleared tries to gain access to the ship somehow. For instance, if a sailor is accosted while on leave, and is held at gunpoint, and his captors want him to grant them access to the ship, there are code words and phrases he can utilize to the ship's security there that will tip them off to a threat. This is especially important when you've got ships armed with nuclear weapons, the access to which, by the way, are generally guarded.

In the case of the situation in Brothers, what we had was a horrendous security breach. The mission of Starfleet security, here, was a complete failure. You might argue that this was possibly unforeseen, and was extraordinary given that it was Data who did it, but security is not meant to be simply reactive even if most of the time it is. It has to be proactively thinking about what possibly could happen, given the situation. Data, himself, as depicted, is a potential security threat, not just to the ship, but the entire Starfleet. No sane admiral would've EVER let Data be posted anywhere that could expose him not only to capture, but to any sensitive information willy-nilly. Even if posted to Starfleet Intelligence, his access would be circumscribed to whatever is necessary on a case-by-case basis. That's because he's not like a organic being, who, while interrogated, would reveal some things, but can't reveal too much because our memories are not very perfect. Data, on the other hand, remembers any fact he's exposed to, as he stated when talking to Admiral Leonard McCoy in Encounter at Farpoint. So, if he's captured, whatever information he has in that head of his might possibly be extracted with a great degree of detail, and that could be disastrous for national security if he was exposed to something especially sensitive.
 
You bring up another sore point I've had with TNG: The presence of non-essential civilian personnel; the families of the ship's crew. This is so wrong on so many levels, that even the producers eventually had to remove them for Voyager. For one, it's a ship meant to go deliberately into harm's way; it's completely immoral to have families living aboard this thing. Secondly, a ship like any version of the Enterprise is a hazardous place without any proper training. It's like allowing kids to roam free in a typical factory that's mass-producing things with machines and conveyors; there's a lot of hazardous energy there, along with a lot of chemicals that probably wouldn't be too good if you got into contact with. Starfleet has plasma running through the walls of their ships. And I don't need to tell you how easy it seems for panels on the bridge to suddenly explode and hurt or even kill who's next to it during a fight.

Why are they there? Because Gene wanted Wesley, and he didn't want him necessarily to be a Starfleet officer. To justify that, he wanted the Enterprise to have families aboard.

Maybe you should ask someone who has actually served on board a highly sentiive ship. Like the Nimitz class for example. Or ask thar guy about the story of how he could get up close and personal with a F-117 and take about a hundred pictures of it without a single person caring.