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http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v894.php

I was amazed at this one; first, that they actually had the guts to show us the consequences of that terrible decision to ally with the Borg, and second, that they expected us to still sympathize with Janeway at the end of it. I was with Ray Wise's character 100% on this one.

A little surprised at the rating. While this isn't a cliffhanger, I think this and the season 5 opener fit together pretty well, although it would have been nice if her depression in Night was shown to be a direct result of this episode's events. It's kind of surprising that they didn't sugercoat what happened after Janeway helped the Borg, but it is logical.

The one problem I have with this is that we see the consequences of the decision, but there are no consequences for Janeway. They bring up the right issues, but Janeway doesn't seem to actually hear/process what Arcturus is saying. She doesn't seem particularly contrite. It's as if the writers realize it's something they need to bring up, but they don't actually want to hold the heroes over the coals for it.

The same thing happened when the Atlantis writers dealt with that team's careless mistakes. They bring up some of the problems, but the Atlantis team shows little sign of actually caring just how much they screwed up the Pegasus.

^ Yeah, that was generally my problem with SGA as well. Really a pity that they had to get Carter, my favorite character from SG-1, tangled up in that.

I forget was this before or after the episode where they found out Species 8472 were nothing but blowhards who were bluffing the whole time?

Regardless while the episode goes some way to rub Janeway's actions in her face, she doesn't reflect on them as a result. She just dismisses the point and moves on without a care.
I mean if it was season 1 Archer then yeah his only regret would be those dirty Vulcans didn't get assimilated instead, but I expect better even of Janeway.

Morgaine wrote:I forget was this before or after the episode where they found out Species 8472 were nothing but blowhards who were bluffing the whole time?

Regardless while the episode goes some way to rub Janeway's actions in her face, she doesn't reflect on them as a result. She just dismisses the point and moves on without a care.
I mean if it was season 1 Archer then yeah his only regret would be those dirty Vulcans didn't get assimilated instead, but I expect better even of Janeway.

Before, that episode was in season 5.

I agree with all of you, I actually rather enjoyed this episode when I saw it years ago, but they could have done more to actually have Janeway reflect and develop from her actions. I'm not with Arturis 100 % but I sympathise with him a good deal, he had every right to be angry and to want to stop Voyager and its crew from doing any more damage to the Delta Quadrant but the writers took the easy way out and made him increasingly petty at the end, then killed him off. I think he would have made an interesting recurring character, he would have done well in the 'Think Tank' episode in my opinion.

I guess I will watch it later when Vidme is not shitting the bed.

SlackerinDeNile wrote:

Morgaine wrote:I forget was this before or after the episode where they found out Species 8472 were nothing but blowhards who were bluffing the whole time?

Regardless while the episode goes some way to rub Janeway's actions in her face, she doesn't reflect on them as a result. She just dismisses the point and moves on without a care.
I mean if it was season 1 Archer then yeah his only regret would be those dirty Vulcans didn't get assimilated instead, but I expect better even of Janeway.

Before, that episode was in season 5.

I agree with all of you, I actually rather enjoyed this episode when I saw it years ago, but they could have done more to actually have Janeway reflect and develop from her actions. I'm not with Arturis 100 % but I sympathise with him a good deal, he had every right to be angry and to want to stop Voyager and its crew from doing any more damage to the Delta Quadrant but the writers took the easy way out and made him increasingly petty at the end, then killed him off. I think he would have made an interesting recurring character, he would have done well in the 'Think Tank' episode in my opinion.

That would've been interesting. Hell he could've popped up on and off right up to the finale, and actually give the name Endgame some meaning!
Mind you another comparison can be made with Stargate Atlantis here with Michael. He had genuine grievances with our heroes too, and they made him a recurring character.... then they turned him into a cartoon villain who absolutely had to be in the wrong, even though the team screwed him over - twice!
VOY and SGA seem to both come from an era where the good guys simply could do no wrong, or rather they could do wrong but nobody was allowed to acknowledge it.

Pretty much what everyone else said. It was some of the questionable actions of the SGA crew that puts SG-1 above SGA for me, even with the really nice character interactions SGA had. I still think spacing RoboWeir's associates was both cruel and senseless.

For Hope and Fear, I'd almost want to score it lower on the grounds of missed potential, but that wouldn't really be fair. Maybe they felt they couldn't have Janeway appear flawed because vagina, but, a captain stranded all alone, with the whole crew knowing the nearest supra-Captain authority is tens of thousands of light years away, and her knowing that they know? And a good part of the crew having doubtful allegiance to start with? That could have been really interesting. Mulgrew could have really shined with such a role, instead of stuck trying to work with the Personality of the Week. Just having Janeway do some self-reflection in this episode could have been awesome. Chakotay trying hard not to say "I told you so" might just have let us know if Robert Beltran was, in fact, replaced with animatronics after season 1.

Come to think of it, if I had to choose between Beltran or Thor for Voyager's exec, I'd've preferred Thor.

But I really liked the Dauntless's design. It's one of my favorite Starfleet designs when in sheep's clothing. The hull, not the bridge or other interior sets. So I'll give it an 8 because cool design.

For the whole revenge plot... I think Arturis was motivated more by revenge than safeguarding the quadrant. Going for the assimilation of the entire Voyager crew for her captain's error in judgement might be going a tad far. But if I were him, I'd want her head on a plate, too. I sympathized more with Doctor Whatshername when the Enterprise D faced off with the crystalline entity for the last time, too, though she had more practical reasons than just revenge.

As much as I love there finally being consequences for reckless and ill-thought out plans, I really don't see Arturis as having a leg to stand on. There was a lot to criticize about how Janeway acted in "Scorpion": ignoring Chakotay, her fanatical insistence on seeing a poor plan through no matter what--but at the same time ...

Maybe I'm a minority here, but I don't think that the idea of temporarily allying with the Borg was automatically wrong just because Janeway carried it out in a really stupid manner for her own selfish reasons. I mean, Species 8472 told Kes, point blank "Your galaxy will be purged" and we saw them capable of blowing up planets with just a handful of ships. So Arturis saying that the rest of the Delta Quadrant would be better off if Species 8472 won is ... problematic. At best. I know they hand-waved 8472's threat of galaxy-wide mass genocide away as a bluff and I guess Arturis may not have known about that threat (do we know if 8472 attacked any non-Borg planets or ships during the war? Besides Voyager?) but given the facts before Janeway, I really don't see the decision to ally with the Borg itself against 8472 as wrong on the face of it. It's just everything she did to justify it and carry it out that made it really damn stupid.

So from where I'm sitting, Arturis' claim that his people would been just fine if Voyager had stepped back and let 8472 wipe out the Borg sounds a bit like revisionist history to me.

The fact that in hindsight we know 8472 was bluffing, or perhaps they they miscommunicated their desire to kill the Borg and their allies plus the fact that Arturis says many were observing the war hoping 8472 would win suggests to me that they weren't attacking others. IIRC they attacked the Voyager because it got in the way, whereas everyone else likely steered clear.

Now yes Janeway had to work with the info she had. On the other hand she stupidly maintained the alliance with the Borg even when she found out the Borg had started the war and had lied to her.
She made some bad decisions and Arturis did have a right to be mad at her. No one's saying she should've prostrated herself before him and sacrificed her crew but *some* genuine regret and nuance would've been nice.

Darth Wedgius wrote:But I really liked the Dauntless's design. It's one of my favorite Starfleet designs when in sheep's clothing. The hull, not the bridge or other interior sets. So I'll give it an 8 because cool design.

I loved flying it in Star Trek Online too, and you have to love the "canon" reason they give for it existing. Starfleet engineers saw it in the Voyager's logs and thought it was cool so went and built a real one. Thanks Arturis!