Sfdebris.net

Watching it - great as always. These videos are amazing.

What I still don't understand though, is why the midi-chlorians were supposedly "necessary". Okay, so you need some mechanism that gives Qui Gon the evidence of Anakin's potential necessary to compel the Jedi Order to let him train Anakin. That still doesn't explain why it needs to be something scientific rather than spiritual. Maybe there could be some mystical, spiritual Jedi test. Or some sort of mark on Anakin that indicates he could fulfill that prophecy. Or any number of other things that would be consistent with the Force being spiritual rather than mediated by microorganisms.

Well in the TCW Yoda arc, the Force Priestess has the line "what your science calls midi-chlorians" and are explained to be intermediaries between the living and cosmic aspects of the Force. Which implies that they're angelic creatures that are mistaken for microbes. Which would put Qui-Gon's "speaking to us" line, Anakin's conception and Plaguies' manipulations in a different context.
(And TCW is Lucas' stuff, its not some other writer fixing his stuff.)

Yeah, I don't agree that they were necessary either. Even if you kept the resistance to him being trained by the council, why not keep it all to spiritual stuff? I mean, in the first film, you had Vader sensing that the force was strong with Luke and commenting on it as he tried to shoot him down, so why not simply have them sense this potential within Anakin, including that if they refused to train him that he could be dangerous to himself and others?

Edit: Oh, interesting aside about Jar-jar's actor - you can hear his voice performance in the film sequel to Arimitage III. I actually saw it years after I saw Episode I and it surprised the hell out of me.

Admiral X wrote:Yeah, I don't agree that they were necessary either. Even if you kept the resistance to him being trained by the council, why not keep it all to spiritual stuff? I mean, in the first film, you had Vader sensing that the force was strong with Luke and commenting on it as he tried to shoot him down, so why not simply have them sense this potential within Anakin, including that if they refused to train him that he could be dangerous to himself and others?

Edit: Oh, interesting aside about Jar-jar's actor - you can hear his voice performance in the film sequel to Arimitage III. I actually saw it years after I saw Episode I and it surprised the hell out of me.

Good to know, that I wasn't the only one watching it. That's a series that should be rebooted. Loved the original OVA, despite all it's flaws and it was my gateweay to Anime in general and there's a lot of good material in that story (plus the Soundtrack is a staple on each of my mobile devices).
Anyways, I've never watched the english dub, only watched it with a german sub. I wasn't aware that the voice-over was done by the same person, I have not yet looked it up on IMDB and I put my money on Mouse. So let's see what IMDB says...

Edit: Yup, it's Mouse. A character that comes from nowhere and leads nowhere, is annoying as fuck and wouldn't be missed one bit if he was cut from the movie. That voice talent gets type-cast.

GandALF wrote:Well in the TCW Yoda arc, the Force Priestess has the line "what your science calls midi-chlorians" and are explained to be intermediaries between the living and cosmic aspects of the Force. Which implies that they're angelic creatures that are mistaken for microbes. Which would put Qui-Gon's "speaking to us" line, Anakin's conception and Plaguies' manipulations in a different context.
(And TCW is Lucas' stuff, its not some other writer fixing his stuff.)

Yeah you realise that makes them even more unnecessary right?
Setting aside the fact that yet again you're referencing external media to fix issues with the movies themselves, this positively reeks of a bad writer covering his own ass with a shoddy explanation in a dishonest attempt to silence his critics.
That the bad writer is Lucas is I'm sure no surprise to anybody.

Morgaine wrote:

GandALF wrote:Well in the TCW Yoda arc, the Force Priestess has the line "what your science calls midi-chlorians" and are explained to be intermediaries between the living and cosmic aspects of the Force. Which implies that they're angelic creatures that are mistaken for microbes. Which would put Qui-Gon's "speaking to us" line, Anakin's conception and Plaguies' manipulations in a different context.
(And TCW is Lucas' stuff, its not some other writer fixing his stuff.)

Yeah you realise that makes them even more unnecessary right?
Setting aside the fact that yet again you're referencing external media to fix issues with the movies themselves, this positively reeks of a bad writer covering his own ass with a shoddy explanation in a dishonest attempt to silence his critics.
That the bad writer is Lucas is I'm sure no surprise to anybody.

Was it actually Lucas that wrote the TCW episode in question? It might just be other writers doing their best to retcon a contentious element; how well they did is another matter.

Dînadan wrote:

Morgaine wrote:

GandALF wrote:Well in the TCW Yoda arc, the Force Priestess has the line "what your science calls midi-chlorians" and are explained to be intermediaries between the living and cosmic aspects of the Force. Which implies that they're angelic creatures that are mistaken for microbes. Which would put Qui-Gon's "speaking to us" line, Anakin's conception and Plaguies' manipulations in a different context.
(And TCW is Lucas' stuff, its not some other writer fixing his stuff.)

Yeah you realise that makes them even more unnecessary right?
Setting aside the fact that yet again you're referencing external media to fix issues with the movies themselves, this positively reeks of a bad writer covering his own ass with a shoddy explanation in a dishonest attempt to silence his critics.
That the bad writer is Lucas is I'm sure no surprise to anybody.

Was it actually Lucas that wrote the TCW episode in question? It might just be other writers doing their best to retcon a contentious element; how well they did is another matter.

No idea actually, GandALF claims it's "Lucas' stuff" and admittedly I'm too lazy to check.
Even if not the writer it's possible it was his idea. Either way it's just not a very good "fix". Either something is scientifically quantifiable or it isn't, trying to have it both ways seems silly to me.

Morgaine wrote: No idea actually, GandALF claims it's "Lucas' stuff" and admittedly I'm too lazy to check.
Even if not the writer it's possible it was his idea. Either way it's just not a very good "fix". Either something is scientifically quantifiable or it isn't, trying to have it both ways seems silly to me.

His role was the same as with V & VI: his story, other writers/directors doing the leg work. My point was is that it conformed to his vision, it wasn't a novel or comic book that Disney ditched and he had nothing to with.

It's not "trying to have it both ways", it's left up to the audience's interpretation: if you want a spiritual answer then they're tiny magic space angels, if you want a scientific answer then its microbes, which is just as "scientific" as the telepath gene in B5 or whatever Vulcans and Betazoids have

I always just figured that the midiclorians were just a signifer of how attuned to the Force you could potentially be. That a greater connection with life, which is what the Force is, comes with your own body becoming a supporter of said life. It never honestly bothered as much as other people. Same with Jar Jar, he's... stupid, but I never felt he was worthless as a character. I feel he's been used to a managable degree in the Clone Wars series. Honestly, it's a bit unfair he got labelled as he did, along with his whole species. Jar Jar is a problem because he's written as poor comic relief, but I never felt he intentionally harmed or disenfranchised anyone. And knowing his performance, both acting and voice wise, were done by a colored man makes the question harder to parse.

After seeing "The Problem with Apu", I've come to accept why people would find an Indian character, portrayed by a white guy doing a funny voice that is mocking a stereotype... is a problem. But is it the same thing when it's colored man doing the funny voice that he apparently developed as nothing more than something to read children's books as? Maybe it's not intended to hurt, but neither was Apu's voice. But that's a problem because it's a white guy doing it who has never realy owned up to the responsibility of the possible pain it could cause. However, the guy who does Jar Jar's voice feels it isn't harmful and thinks people only feel that way because they don't know what true racism is like. Right now, I'm not sure. It's a complicated question, one I don't feel comfortable with answering definitively. All I can say is that I feel Jar Jar is not nearly as horrible as some claim and I never felt the hatred for him that others have. I never have and never will. I just don't see it. Same with the Ewoks, same with Ahsoka, I just don't really follow the trends the hardcores do.

Admiral X wrote:Yeah, I don't agree that they were necessary either.

Why did it need some explanation like that at all?

The background behind the Kawisatz Haderach and the Bene Gesserit breeding program was always kept vague behind the simple explanation that is was thousands of years of Eugenics breeding, as was what the Spice actually did beyond simply unlocked closed parts of the mind.

All that was really needed was for Qui-Gon to close his eyes doing some vague sensing thing with Anakin, get stunned by a mindgasm and exclaim a child his age shouldn't give off a Force vibe that he does, take him to the council and have them all get the same reaction. That also highlights something odd too in the Phantom Menace, how blase the council was toward Anakin when they should have been shocked, but then thinking about realizing the circumstances around and him concluding that the kid might be exceptionally powerful, but the rule exist for a reason and he's too old. Have them at least pause and have the audience get a sense of temptation that this is a kid too exceptional, but the massive danger of mentoring him to be a Jedi is too great.

This and other things sprinkled throughout Chuck's videos and other thing's I've read gives me the impression that Lucas knows very little about what to keep well explained and what to keep vague in his work and the fine balance of it we got in the Original Trilogy was a combination of others influences during the making of the films, pure happenstance where the vagueness arose from the rushed, stressed demands of production or things simply weren't thought through deeply enough and were left as is, like the Republic original and the "1000 generations" comment that I know from how my brother acted were the bits of history people loved.

Returning to Dune, there is actually very little backstory and history to the books. Somethings were explained and others were left vague in the same way real history is has events and periods of time that are spotty to us today. What was explained rarely went into any detail and the paradoxical effect was creating a sense of depth out of proportion to what was presented, typical in an off the cuff manner like someone flipping through a history book and mentioning random states and civilizations throughout history.

Amusingly, it's the opposite approach to Tolkien took but both worlds have a heavy weight of history about them, although Tolkien's still has a vastly deeper sense of that to it.

But that's a problem because it's a white guy doing it who has never realy owned up to the responsibility of the possible pain it could cause.

Not to derail the thread, but I don't get this when Apu is one of the most decent and admirable characters in the Simpsons. I haven't watched the show since around 2000 so I don't know what direction he went since the while marriage and baby disaster to his character development.

To me it's like a Christian being annoyed by Flanders before his exaggeration when he was one of the decent few characters in the show you could tolerate having around you alongside Apu. As I've heard people put it, "Who'd you want for your neighbor? Ned or Homer?".