Babylon 5: April Marathon

[Trinary]

This is a real treat.

I have to wonder at Chuck's assertion in "Interludes and Examinations" that the Vorlons aren't fighting the Shadows openly because they'd lose and, as such, need the alliance with the younger races. That seems really off-base.

I'm putting this next section in a different color text to hide since it's spoilery for the rest of Babylon 5 (and I don't see an option for spoiler-blocking text).

The Vorlons don't engage the Shadows openly because that wouldn't settle their dispute. The two sides want to prove that their methods, their ideology, is superior to the other's when it comes to shepherding the younger races along. They don't engage each other directly but act through their proxies. It's a rules of engagement thing, not because the Vorlons are necessarily weaker.

If the Vorlons and Shadows fight each other, which the other First Ones aren't keen on anyway, that wouldn't do anything to really settle their arguments. The contest is between their respective followers and agents; to show that the races who follow the Vorlons are better than those who follow the Shadows or vice versa. It's like parents betting that their kid's team will beat the team of the other parent's kids. If the parents fought directly, it wouldn't prove anything.

Yeah, the Shadows attack the other races directly, but I get the feeling it's because they don't have as many proxies to work through (I guess they got wiped out in the last great war). Even if the Vorlons aren't as powerful as the Shadows (which can be debated) that isn't the fundamental reason why they don't get involved directly.

[SFDebris]

Just to be clear, I was sharing what Sheridan was discussing with Kosh in the episode, about why "it is not time yet."

[Ixthos]

[...]

I came here to say that also - I started watching Babylon 5 because of Chuck's reviews, and finished it a few months ago, and this line - I actually paused the review to come here - bothered me. The idea the Vorlon's would lose a direct conflict ... well, in a sense they WOULD lose, but not physically.

Just to be clear, I was sharing what Sheridan was discussing with Kosh in the episode, about why "it is not time yet."

Chuck, I really like your reviews, and this isn't a criticism because I feel your contents is some of the best I've watched and listened to. I only feel like, when you get to discussing the true nature of the conflict in early season 4, that this could lead to some confusion. I agree the way you linked Sheridan's willingness to die to Kosh's unwillingness, his being shamed into realising his mistakes, is great. It's just the framing of this, that the Vorlon's NEED the younger races due to being outnumbered, is a little misleading, albeit unintentional. I listened to what you said again, and it does seem to be carefully phrased so in retrospect it could be seen to mean the more subtle implications, but that part about them being outnumbered feels a little like misdirection. I can't remember if Sheridan comes to this conclusion though.

[SFDebris]

*shrug* I feel it accurately represents the episode's position:

Sheridan: Now, if you can convince your government to send out an expedition to engage one or two of their ships....

Kosh: No.

Sheridan: I know you can't take the entire Shadow fleet by yourselves...

[Beelzquill]

I have to admit, I never particularly cared about Dr. Franklin. I didn't hate him or anything, I just didn't really care. So when Chuck said he was moving on to the plot he actually cared about, that resonated with me.

[Ixthos]

*shrug* I feel it accurately represents the episode's position:

Sheridan: Now, if you can convince your government to send out an expedition to engage one or two of their ships....

Kosh: No.

Sheridan: I know you can't take the entire Shadow fleet by yourselves...

Fair enough, and I suppose it is the belief of the main characters, that the reason the Vorlon's don't get involved must be because they can't (the main cast) or don't care (everyone who isn't in the main cast), rather than because they actually have terms of engagement agreed upon.

Otherwise, I enjoyed these reviews, and I thank you for all the effort you have put into them

[Kinky Vorlon]

The rules of the game were that the Vorlorns and Shadows agreed to, implicitly if not explicitly, is that they would use other species are proxies for their ideological war. It's like the Cold War where the US and USSR wouldn't wage war directly, but through proxies and tangential conflicts (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Korea, the various Israeli wars, etc).

They never engaged directly, until Sheridan convinced Kosh to do so. That's why Kosh was assassinated. Who would win a direct war between the Vorlons and Shadows is academic at best, irrelevant at worst. Kosh dared to play outside the rules of the game, and for that sin was murdered. As Trinary said, they're more concerned with being proven right, than actually winning on a strategic level.

[clearspira]

''Good Samaritan beaten after helping lost toddler find parents''.

And there's the Catch 22 to being a hero, innit. I'll be honest with you: I would never help a crying child lost in the street. I would walk right on past. Many of you i'm sure would think me cruel for admitting this. And yet here we are, one of those heroes every man is meant to be getting a beating for his efforts. Why? Because that is the society we live in. You ignore a kid in need, you're an asshole. You help a kid in need, you're an asshole. You never know whether a medal or a broken eye socket is coming your way if you take the risk of helping a Random any more and thus I choose not to.

And don't even think about helping out a woman getting beaten up by her husband in the street - stories are abundant of guys trying that and having HER attack THEM immediately after. Let a woman get beaten up, you're an asshole. Help her, get beaten up yourself. You ever wonder why Bystander Syndrome exists, there you are.

I firmly believe that if superheroes actually existed the most likely scenario is not Marvel or DC; its The Incredibles. Where heroes get sued by their victims for saving them.

[CrypticMirror]

''Good Samaritan beaten after helping lost toddler find parents''.

A

I mean, it was Florida. The chances of being violently set upon in public, for any reason, were two out of three; even on a good day.

[Deledrius]

You ignore a kid in need, you're an asshole. You help a kid in need, you're an asshole.

I'd rather be one for helping than for actually being one.