UK passing staunch gender bathroom law

[McAvoy]

Heterosexuality predates the rise of agriculture. Why? Because it's how the species thrives.

And I'm not claiming gay or bisexuals are unnatural. Some male animals in nature only get a chance once a year (ouch), so they plow their mates. Kind of a "friends with fringe benefits" angle.

But I am stating that it perpetuates the species, thus why heterosexuality is the norm and always will be. The most you can claim is experimentation will increase, which I am all in favor of.

LGBT need greater opportunity for that. That's what I want that they can't give us. Equal greater opportunities for ALL. Not social equity.

Yikes.

Yeah.

Homosexuality is widely observed in nature. It's as natural and normal as heterosexuality.

Yeah, they are. Where did you get the impression I said otherwise? Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth. Because I was preempting anyone who may try to slander me by claiming I'm homophobic, when it is very natural.

You mention heterosexuality as being normal. I countered homosexuality as being normal too. It's pretty simple.

I haven't looked into or read any examples of trans animals. There might be but how can we know?

No I am not calling you a homophobe.

[Thebestoftherest]

Captain Crimsom what is normal?

[Captain Crimson]

You mention heterosexuality as being normal. I countered homosexuality as being normal too. It's pretty simple.

I haven't looked into or read any examples of trans animals. There might be but how can we know?

No I am not calling you a homophobe.

I'm sorry, I misspoke. I had meant to illustrate, more so, that it's the prime mindset for animals and that will never change unless we self-extinct, which is not going to happen given our fear and anxiety about death. And thus, why het will always be the majority, with the far fringes gaining greater prestige with experimentation. Unless we can define the nature of consciousness, which TBH, I think defining what the universe is would be easier.

Because it's far harder to pin down electrochemical interactions in the brains of animals than people?

Never said you were. I had meant more so for that comment. I think it was taken out of context because I misspoke to illustrate a point.

Captain Crimsom what is normal?

Fluid and ever subject to change.

[McAvoy]

You mention heterosexuality as being normal. I countered homosexuality as being normal too. It's pretty simple.

I haven't looked into or read any examples of trans animals. There might be but how can we know?

No I am not calling you a homophobe.

I'm sorry, I misspoke. I had meant to illustrate, more so, that it's the prime mindset for animals and that will never change unless we self-extinct, which is not going to happen given our fear and anxiety about death. And thus, why het will always be the majority, with the far fringes gaining greater prestige with experimentation. Unless we can define the nature of consciousness, which TBH, I think defining what the universe is would be easier.

Because it's far harder to pin down electrochemical interactions in the brains of animals than people?

Never said you were. I had meant more so for that comment. I think it was taken out of context because I misspoke to illustrate a point.

Captain Crimsom what is normal?

Fluid and ever subject to change.

OK so what was the point of that post to begin with?

Homosexuals do not represent a large enough population to affect population growth or maintenance. And the trans community is even smaller.

Yes the heterosexual community is much larger and what you would consider normal due to the population percentage.

[Captain Crimson]

OK so what was the point of that post to begin with?

Homosexuals do not represent a large enough population to affect population growth or maintenance. And the trans community is even smaller.

Yes the heterosexual community is much larger and what you would consider normal due to the population percentage.

Confused Face

I don't know...

How about these giant monster corporations claiming to put LGBT allegories in their stories, and they flounder, mainstream fandom hates it, and so it brings backlash to the trans community? It's a two-way street, when one is demanding activism and the company is being activist when steeped in their own double standards. How the H am I supposed to take executives seriously about transpandering when it's not like they're activists anyway, it's to make money. Again, corporate social justice is propaganda. They don't stand for social justice, but ruthless profit.

I mean, because God forbid, if there's one thing Trekkies couldn't relate to with the trans community, it's being sidelined and ostracized on the fringes of the acceptable social norms...

SARCASM

[McAvoy]

Or maybe just maybe it isnt necessarily about some bean counter saying they can make more money if they include gays or trans in their media. What if it's the people directly making the media who are being activists? And maybe they are going to far with it?

[Draco Dracul]

A) Trans people are more likely to come out online before they do IRL because people have immense pressures in real life to not be trans.
B) Most woke media comes from artists working in the industry that want to push for representation often because they are those things.
C) Executives have been caving because they've crunched the numbers and thier is going to be more money in wholeness than in not doing that. You can actually see this in how film, especially big budget film is less open to queerness than TV as film has to be made with the Chinese market in mind while TV does not.

A) That is a bad move because the internet is not RL. Even if you're going to use the net, then call someone. Share screens. Listen to their voice. That adds more of the human element 90% of the agenda-driven political net removes. And as a prelude to RL choices. I don't want to minimize the judgment issues present here, but then we all face such judgments in our lives as if our peers are the holy arbiter of right and wrong, but if they are so sensitive that have thin skinner than air, how can they ever expect to have a happy life? I won't patronize them by treating them as a danged special case. Online trans communities are fine, those involved in activism for fandom communities are not, because those inevitably turn to a demand for representation, and I said it before, you cannot prove what is taking place in somebody's mind and identity issues are hard to pin down to a scientific conclusion past our own biases. So representation shouldn't matter, but character and plot, unless it is for that deliberate niche audience, like TOS was in the '60s.

It's not just judgment form their peers, it's getting thrown out of their home by their family, it's getting fired from their jobs, it's potentially being murdered in the streets.

B) Exactly what I said above. And woke is not mainstream because trans is not mainstream, and if there's zero passion from the creatives and artists and writers, then it explains so much of these really bad decisions for major IPs. They want to go back to the past and change it, and they're mandating decisions many creatives can't handle or adapt to well. Do you support business making mandates for greater diversity? Barring the LGBT, I think we already had that in the '90s. And yet they still like to act as if nerds are such bigots, they're "toxic fans" that need to go away because we're smarter than they like to admit and call them out on their BS. Political art is one thing. Political correctness has no place in art. The only truly positive nerd fandoms I find anymore are those with anime.

What do you mean by mainstream? Most people aren't trans, but most people aren't Jewish and there is very, very little need to justify having Jewish characters in media. Support for trans people is fairly high especially in the 18-49 demographics that companies actually care about.

I actually do support diversity hiring quotas because non-quota attempts at increasing diverity in the work place have utterly failed at reducing hiring discrimination.

Including the kinds of people, be they non-white, gay, and/or trans, that exist in the real world is not political correctness, if anything the media has a history of being too politically correct in only showing things that cater to cis straight white audiences. A good example of this would be westers where in cowboys are almost uniformly depicted as white when around half of all cowboys were black or Hispanic.

Anime fans can be quite toxic and throw around transphobic and homophobic slurs with abandon.

C) I feel Japan has handled LGBT themes very well, because while it is about making money, it's also not about being hamfisted and trapped in a particular time period, or hiring people for biased reasons like to hit a blue checkmark. It's why the demands for PC in anime are being run up right up against a giant, brick wall. Japan ain't having that. I mean, take something like ST. I did not care that Seven was bisexual. I do, however, think that shoving that in 20 years later is too little, too late. Seven should have experimented on VOY that way, due to being out of step with humanity. You're asking fans to take a huge leap on offscreen events, and VOY was never good with continuity or passion or liberal ideology that way in the first place. What would work this way is a small animated one-shot to actually show this. I'd be happy with that. But they don't do that.

A lot of Japanese media is quite terrible at LGBT representation as most of it exists for the titillation of the straight audiences.

There are no business interests in anti trans bills. Businesses have been pushing against them because they stand to lose money. The legislatures are passing these laws because thier members are bigots and they want to appeal to their bigoted base.

They're losing money by trying to cater to transtenders on Twitter and they wind up stripping down the IP so that most fans just walk away, even the LGBT they were trying to pander to. Mr. Trump's trans ban on the military, that I think is a more clear-cut case because it's stupid. You're not there to spout identity politics, but to fight. And to obey the military hierarchy. But for businesses, they're not pushing against them, they're throwing in as much PC checklisted themes they are able to for any IP. And they never stop to hit you over the head with how bigoted the past AND present is. When does it stop? Like canceling Dr. Seuss books. They are doing that to cater to PC SJW puritans.

Firstly transtrenders do not exist. Secondly, they are adding more and more diversity because it makes money. Thirdly, the military is a major public institution and has historically been a melting pot for Americans and the integration of the military has historically furthered integration and acceptance in other parts of American life meaning that Trump was deliberately trying to force trans people out of public life. Fourthly being trans is not in and of itself political, being trans in no way prevents someone from following orders. Fifthly, the Dr. Seuss books in question stopped print because they weren't making a lot of money and because Seuss books realized that they could get a huge amount of money by getting conservative morons to buy huge amounts of the books that they are still selling, which is exactly what happened.

It is the conservatives and the anti trans people that are getting in people's personal business in this case.

In what respect? Somebody claims to be trans, I don't care. They want representation in fandom, I don't care. But the business is favoring them, one side over the other, and so drive away people in the middle. And it's led to some truly awful writing like Terminator: Dark Fate. But they just call those who criticize the stupid buff woman (I forgot her name) as a "[insert istaphobe here]", whether a transphobe or misogynist, so there's no chance for nuance and positive discussion. The fandom remains trapped between two zealot camps co-opting the narrative for their own uses. People are too quick to label one another these days and insult them and slander them, belittle and name-call, and it's not just trans. Being the most vulnerable does them no favors when the executives write horrible stories and accuse the detractors of being bigots, since that just brings MORE hate to them. Hate, hate, hate, when does it end?

Dark Fate was produced by James Cameron and he's long past doing things that he doesn't want to do.

Don't tell me there's not hate when others on this very messageboard would very much celebrate horrible things. And you know what? It's the right of forum posters to express those sentiments. But we should expect more from the big movers and shakers in government and industry.

A) I fail to see how the internet makes identity less valid now than it was then.
B) I see you know the one transphobic joke gl for ypu.

A) The internet liberates and divides. And because it's all chemical processes we still haven't pinned down to a set of variables and math equation. Trans problems are identity issues and that's something those locked into the limited organic perspective can't prove to outsiders due to the solipsism issue.

So logically allowing self-identification is the only way to go.

B) What are you on about? If someone says they identify as a cloud, I'll treat them as anyone else, I'll try to be nice, but I'm not gonna take them seriously. If a man identifies as a woman, I say, maybe you should transition. If they said they didn't feel comfortable with that, I shrug. You do you. But if they want my advice, I'd prefer listing pros and cons and let them come to a conclusion.

And "what if someone identified as [inanimate object]" or "I identify as [inanimate object]" is a long running trans phobic joke.

I fail to see how treating people with basic dignity and respect is a grand sweeping change or how refusing to do so because someone is trans is anything other than transphobic. I think most people, even a lot of trans people that don't know they are trans yet, are transphobic, but also that most people will try to stop being transphobic when it's pointed out to them.

I'd said before, if they are this fragile, then maybe they should be in special-needs care. Not to be cruel, but we all deal with s*** and don't get this much spotlight put on us by business and government, and you know what? As I stated, the fuels backlash to unpopular decisions.

I think most people are more decent than you know, but the illusion of modern society the media elite and political heads fuel doesn't demonstrate this. I literally have no reason not to consider trans less human at all.

My dude it's not about a few people saying mean things it's about politcal movements to ban us from public life and the staggering amount of hate crimes committed against us.

If someone says they are trans online and they are not what is lost by humoring them?

Nothing in private circles, very bad when it comes to fandom discussions and consumer feedback, because the executives are only going to be listening in one direction, not the other.

Have you considered that the reason executives are listening to one side and not the other is despite most media executives being very, very conservative they've found their is more money in diversity?

And they can do that regardless of whether trans people are allowed to use public restrooms. It's a door nor a magic force field.

Hence why there's no easy answers.

My dude if you don't want to date trans women they don't want to date you either.

I'm willing to give anyone a chance. I'm, however, stating that when you try to go against the grain of traditional feminine beauty that is hardwired into our genetic code, you get something like Abbyzilla from TLOUII. Slim upper torso, wide hips is how we're programmed to examine our mates, as males, and that will never change. It's a double standard, sure, but there's always going to be one of those. I say embrace it and let it only go so far. Never be afraid to stand up for what you believe in.

Standards of beauty have varied wildly over both time and cultures.

The GOP censored one of thier own Congresswomen for not bowing down before trump six months after he lost the election. You are delusional.

Refer to Disney's affinity groups.

Unisex bathrooms and stall design that goes to the floor. Boom no one can peep and no one gives anyone funny looks for which bathroom they go to.

As I've said before, in the end, what I'd prefer is more funding for bathrooms and benches. There's really never enough in my city. If they go with that, then that's on the city. I just won't take one side or the other.

You don't need to be a member of a community to gatekeep it. In fact there has been a long history of cis people gatekeeping who is and isn't really trans something that you are literally doing in this thread.

I'm doing it because I'm objecting to the Twitter nuts who are the only people the businesses care about and pander to and so ruin great works of art.

What great work of art has been ruined in this way?

[Draco Dracul]

OK so what was the point of that post to begin with?

Homosexuals do not represent a large enough population to affect population growth or maintenance. And the trans community is even smaller.

Yes the heterosexual community is much larger and what you would consider normal due to the population percentage.

Confused Face

I don't know...

How about these giant monster corporations claiming to put LGBT allegories in their stories, and they flounder, mainstream fandom hates it, and so it brings backlash to the trans community? It's a two-way street, when one is demanding activism and the company is being activist when steeped in their own double standards. How the H am I supposed to take executives seriously about transpandering when it's not like they're activists anyway, it's to make money. Again, corporate social justice is propaganda. They don't stand for social justice, but ruthless profit.

Generally when LGBT allegories flounder it's because the LGBT community finds them insulting. Everything corporations do is for ruthless profit, if your mad at pandering to "SJW" either you're a hard core intersectional communist that doesn't want to see your sibling in arms seduced by the false promises of rainbow capitalism or you dislike social justice.

I mean, because God forbid, if there's one thing Trekkies couldn't relate to with the trans community, it's being sidelined and ostracized on the fringes of the acceptable social norms...

SARCASM

Like maybe in the actual sixties, but Star Trek has been mainstream longer than I've been alive and while many hardcore fans haven't cared for Discovery, it's clearly resonated with the more mainstream audience.

[McAvoy]

OK someone clue me in on transtrenders. I never heard of that term until I read this.

[Draco Dracul]

OK someone clue me in on transtrenders. I never heard of that term until I read this.

It's a reference to the large up tick in trans people in recent years, especially trans people that don't fit the very strict mold of what a trans people are supposed to be that was set in the 50s (straight, strongly gender conforming, have shown strong tendencies from a very young age), people of a nonbinary trans identity, and/or people that are open and proud of being trans. The use of the term not so coincidently coincides with with the DMS 5 which shifted from Gender Identity Disorder, which defined being trans as a mental illness, to Gender Dysphoria and major victories in other areas of the LGBT rights movement that lead to more resources being directed towards trans issue.

There was a point where there was a manner of debate between keeping the kind of gatekeeping that had previously existed and embracing a more open and inclusive definition of what it is to be trans. The latter won out both due to their being far more people that fit that mold (especially since only about 1/4 of trans people are straight) and the fact that assimilationism hadn't actually gotten the gay community any kind of actual bipartisan support. It's pretty much only used as a slur hurled at gender non conforming trans people, non-op trans people, and non-binary people.