TNG - The Emissary

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Beastro
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by Beastro »

Philistine wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:58 am I'm surprised by the lack of comment on the weirdness of the Klingons sending out a ship with its crew in cold sleep a mere 75 years before TNG - well into the TOS era, when we know quite well the Klingon Empire had warp drive. (And if we didn't know that we could deduce it without reference to anything outside the episode, as there'd be no reason for the ship's crew to believe they were "still at war with the Federation" if they had launched from a pre-FTL civilization.)

Why would they do that? Even if warp drives were scarce at the time of launch, why not wait a few years (or even decades) until a warp drive-equipped ship became available? The cold sleep ship took 75 years to reach its destination, and presumably would need another 75 to return; a warp-capable ship would be back with the goods sooner even if it had to wait almost the full 150 before starting the trip. It is baffling.
Emulating Soviet style unnecessary levels of restrictions while party members get luxuries like dachas on the Black Sea coast?

"Warships get warp core priority, but even if we have extra ones you civilians won't get any unless you have influence in the government."
Marveryn
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by Marveryn »

there actually a way they could explain the co sleep but it would have involve adding a few lines and leaving a few out in the original script. basically the klingon were in an attack mission for that sector. they had a warp core breach and communication was out. they were 75 years away from the mission in sublight so they went to cold sleep.

I take the original idea my had something to do with those story of japanese soldier being found in some islands not knowing ww2 had ended and such.
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by clearspira »

LordFeagans wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:32 am Lt Commander Deanna Troi...

You know, given the outfit that she wore from episode 2 until season 6, and given that they retconned her empathic ability to just sense emotion and not experience it, I figured they had also retconned her rank or even the fact that she was a Starfleet officer. Until Ensign Ro pointed out in season 5 "Disaster" that Troi held the rank of Lt Commander, I had completely forgotten that Troi was an actual commissioned officer. And if I recall the reactions to Ro's statement, even those remaining on the Bridge had no knowledge that Troi was even an officer.
This character was very much a mistake in execution. She would have been a yeoman in TOS AKA the Captain's Bit of Totty.
We used to argue whether Star Trek or Star Wars was better. Now we argue which one is worse.
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Nealithi
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by Nealithi »

Philistine wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:58 am I'm surprised by the lack of comment on the weirdness of the Klingons sending out a ship with its crew in cold sleep a mere 75 years before TNG - well into the TOS era, when we know quite well the Klingon Empire had warp drive. (And if we didn't know that we could deduce it without reference to anything outside the episode, as there'd be no reason for the ship's crew to believe they were "still at war with the Federation" if they had launched from a pre-FTL civilization.)

Why would they do that? Even if warp drives were scarce at the time of launch, why not wait a few years (or even decades) until a warp drive-equipped ship became available? The cold sleep ship took 75 years to reach its destination, and presumably would need another 75 to return; a warp-capable ship would be back with the goods sooner even if it had to wait almost the full 150 before starting the trip. It is baffling.
First I think a half step back is needed and go meta. The threat from these klingons is that they think there is still a war and they will continue to follow their last orders till a verifiable counter command can come. There were Japanese soldiers that did not know WW2 ended years later and they were still fighting. They were forgotten about pockets that would lash out at everyone till an old commander was found and brought out to get them to stand down.
Mix that with the idea of the nuclear attack submarine. A counter strike weapon you are not supposed to be able to find or track. So you can't defeat us without accounting for all of them.
So in universe these klingons began a deep cryosleep. They would be on station, hidden by being too small and in the middle of no where to be noticed. On receipt of a certain signal (Or loss of one) the system wakes them up. Their orders to take vengeance on the enemy.
If this had been a drone or similar doomsday device then you don't need an ambassador or negotiation. Enterprise swats a seventy-five year old war machine. Put a crew on it that is not inherently evil and doing what they think is right and warranted? That is the tragedy they need to avoid.

If they had played that bit a little more than the "these klingons are beyond reason" thing they toss onto old mentalities. Then I think it would have rated higher.

There is a huge effect in TNG to make TOS klingons seem darker than they were. But we saw three klingon captains and had reason to respect if not like all three.

Kor for his taking a world and respecting Kirk for not licking his boots.
Kang for despite not needing a reason to hate humans. Knew not to fight in a burning house.
Koloth a charismatic captain that was willing to concede being out maneuvered and withdraw when the spy in federation space was discovered.

These are not blood thirsty murderers that kill for the sake of it. They are soldiers doing their duty. And a bit of something I think was lost on the TNG era 'military is bad' vibe.
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by CaptainCalvinCat »

Chuck had difficulties with the episode?
Hm - maybe he needs a vacation. Wouldn't surprise me, after all, he gave us great content over the last - what - 15 years? Chuck, take it slow, we don't want you to suffer from burn-out.
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Linkara
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by Linkara »

Yeah, it'd be pretty easy to just explain away the Klingons - they were on a mission that required them to go into cryo-sleep, it malfunctioned, and they awoke 75 years later than they should have, but the nature of their mission kept them from updating the chronometers or anything, so they just assumed everything was hunky-dory and were getting ready to attack.

As for what was frustrating Chuck so - I'd say it's that it's an episode about basic relationship drama where we don't know much of what the actual drama is beyond their different natures. The two are attracted to each other, but their personalities are so radically different that they just don't make a good pair. And when it's just back and forth "I love you but I hate you!" and "I hate you but I love you!" there just isn't much to comment on. As said above, their relationship stuff, though, doesn't really contribute to the finale - the episode is in many ways more just setup for Reunion than anything else. I like Worf's solution and I think the music was great, but there's not much else to really comment on.

Also, I WILL disagree on Skeletor's makeup. I think it looks cool and a pretty good job for syndicated television in the late-80s. The others in the program... not so much.
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by CaptainCalvinCat »

Linkara wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:53 pm Yeah, it'd be pretty easy to just explain away the Klingons - they were on a mission that required them to go into cryo-sleep, it malfunctioned, and they awoke 75 years later than they should have, but the nature of their mission kept them from updating the chronometers or anything, so they just assumed everything was hunky-dory and were getting ready to attack.

As for what was frustrating Chuck so - I'd say it's that it's an episode about basic relationship drama where we don't know much of what the actual drama is beyond their different natures. The two are attracted to each other, but their personalities are so radically different that they just don't make a good pair. And when it's just back and forth "I love you but I hate you!" and "I hate you but I love you!" there just isn't much to comment on. As said above, their relationship stuff, though, doesn't really contribute to the finale - the episode is in many ways more just setup for Reunion than anything else. I like Worf's solution and I think the music was great, but there's not much else to really comment on.

Also, I WILL disagree on Skeletor's makeup. I think it looks cool and a pretty good job for syndicated television in the late-80s. The others in the program... not so much.
So, basically, the Klingons did a "Buck Rogers"?
Gotta say, I have no problem with the very basic relationship drama, after all: It's what you expect, from two Klingons meeting each other, in especially, if they already have lots of emotional baggage.
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Ghilz
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by Ghilz »

I will say, flaw the episodes aside, I always liked K'Ehleyr. She's got a bit of a ruthless pragmatism and an edge to her the rest of the crew (especially season 1 or 2) lack. Probably comes more from the actress than the writing, especially in this dull episode. And she's got a few great lines here and there in her appearances. It's a shame we see her only three times before the show stuffs her in the fridge to give Worf a murder grudge.
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by cloudkitt »

Yeah I have positive memories of this episode largely because I love the character of K'Ehleyr. Also after S1 it was nice to see Worf be, like, a person. With apologies to DS9, K'Ehleyr was always the best fit for Worf, imo. Their outlooks on both Klingonness and Humanity could have complemented each other very well.
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Re: TNG - The Emissary

Post by DanteC »

K'Ehleyr seems to me what Torres should have been. Not to detract from Torres or her actress, but there seems to be a lot of material that someone literally between two different worlds because of their parents being from two different races that could be used (I've never really watched TOS so I don't know if it might have been something that they felt they covered too much of with Spock?)

I think I remember reading the Voyager story bible seeing something that Torres would look up to Tuvok as someone in control of their emotions, and would try Vulcan meditation techniques. It's not as if she has many other people she could talk to about being a half-race individual (Niomi Wildman doesn't count).

K'Ehleyr seems in contrast, someone who has issues with her heritage, but has managed to make something of herself. I guess the only other comparison, aside from Spock and Torres obviously, is Scorpius from Farscape of all people. K'Ehleyr might have had anger issues, Scorpius's body is literally trying to kill him.
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