Why Palpatine Influcing Kylo Ren was a Bad Idea

[Beastro]

I've always felt that the Disney Trilogy as a whole didn't really have an arc and this backs up that idea by removing any and all motivation an arc MIGHT have had and boiling it down to "Let's just throw plot twists and awesome buttons at the audience in the conclusion"

FTFY

If you're going to fix my poor spelling you're going to be here for a while. Dyslexia has no exasperation date and it's frankly a minor miracle if I managed to write a whole sentence without making a mistake.

It has nothing to do with spelling or you at all. The whole trilogy seems built without an arc and was just crap randomly thrown together. Kylo's issues are only part of the greater problems the movies have.

All of that came home to roost in the final film, and it's no surprise, because it's the same shit Abrams did with Lost.

[Winter]

I've always felt that the Disney Trilogy as a whole didn't really have an arc and this backs up that idea by removing any and all motivation an arc MIGHT have had and boiling it down to "Let's just throw plot twists and awesome buttons at the audience in the conclusion"

FTFY

If you're going to fix my poor spelling you're going to be here for a while. Dyslexia has no exasperation date and it's frankly a minor miracle if I managed to write a whole sentence without making a mistake.

It has nothing to do with spelling or you at all. The whole trilogy seems built without an arc and was just crap randomly thrown together. Kylo's issues are only part of the greater problems the movies have.

All of that came home to roost in the final film, and it's no surprise, because it's the same shit Abrams did with Lost.

My apologizes the whole FTFY threw me off.

[McAvoy]

The problem with Palpatine in the first place being in Episode 9 was because of entirely Rian Johnson having a blank check on making a movie how he wants. Which means killing off of the new big baddie in Snoke. And trying to do a redemption arc for Kylo somehow.

Honestly, that movie would have worked just fine if you insert : ancient Sith Master who secretly took over the Imperial remnants when Palpatine died.

It creates questions to be sure but they are different and it doesn't destroy Return of the Jedi.

A small tweak I would also do with this ancient Sith Lord, is that Kylo is sent to capture her. He does. He brings her to ancient Sith Lord who uses ancient Sith magic to turn her, and then he disposes of Kylo who barely survives.

This is where Kylo realizes what is happening and how he has been manipulated and becomes Ben Solo again. Then he goes back to not only redeem himself, but to save Rey from filling becoming Darth Rey.

[Winter]

The problem with Palpatine in the first place being in Episode 9 was because of entirely Rian Johnson having a blank check on making a movie how he wants. Which means killing off of the new big baddie in Snoke. And trying to do a redemption arc for Kylo somehow.

Honestly, that movie would have worked just fine if you insert : ancient Sith Master who secretly took over the Imperial remnants when Palpatine died.

It creates questions to be sure but they are different and it doesn't destroy Return of the Jedi.

This whole Trilogy is about undoing the accomplishments of the Return of the Jedi. Luke becoming a Jedi and rebuilding the order, Leia and Han ending up together, Han putting his smuggler days behind him, Anakin sacrificing himself to save his children? All of that is undone and rendered meaningless before the Trilogy even began.

This whole Trilogy is a classic example of what happens when you try to only do what viewers want instead of taking the story in the direction that makes the most sense narratively and instead plays it safe by just being the Original Trilogy like ALL lazy sequels do. Home Alone 2, Mass Effect: Andromeda, The Hangover 2 and Terminator 3 are all just the original slightly altered in the hopes that you don't notice that it's the same film.

Because TDST was so obsessed with trying to give everyone what they wanted it ended up being nothing more then a Checklist Trilogy. Noelle Stevenson said that they are a huge fan of Star Wars and worked a number of tributes to it and other classic works into their works such as She-Ra. But while they use SW as inspiration they didn't copy and paste but just used it as a frame work to create their own ideas. Much in the same way that Lucas used series he loved as a kid as inspiration for the films he would make including Star Wars.

The Mandalorian has gotten a bit of criticism for the various references and direct tie-ins to the Star Wars Series as a whole which included a ton of nods to the Original Expanded Universe. However, IMO, the Mandalorian manages to avoid the issues I have with TDST because instead of being just a retread of older stories it instead uses those ideas as a foundation to tell the story of a father and son as they explore the galaxy. It didn't regress or undo the character development of other characters and, in fact, upgraded other characters so they were as cool as fans thought they were.

Boba was just some Bounty Hunter who managed to capture Han but it was the EU that expanded upon and fleshed out his character and traces of that was later integrated into Jango's character until eventually it came full circle and Boba would clearly be based on how he was written in the EU.

Good sequels build on what came before, bad sequels just play it safe and hope you don't notice.

[McAvoy]

My honest opinion about Abrams is that when he writes a story he doesn't really think about consequences of the actions of how his established character would look like under even a small dull light. Liek for example, showing Han Solo being a deadbeat Dad without any real explanation of why in Episode 7. Or having Old Spock fail in his mission to prevent the Super Duper Super Mega Nova consuming Romulus. Just for example.

He just does what on surface seems to be cool. Old Spock ends up in the new Trek timeline, Han Solo somehow gets the Falcon back.

Or the fact that in Episode 7 Luke was missing. Rian had his turn in it, and butchered Luke's whole character for it. All for the sake of usurping expectations.

The sequel trilogy I doubt never started off trying to destroy the Original Trilogy storyline, but the studio management certainly did when they couldn't piece a coherent trilogy.

We and they knew it was going to be a trilogy. There was no doubt about it, and it should have been planned from the beginning as one. Disney should have had a concrete plan before Episode 7 was even filming on how the trilogy was going to go. Maybe not a true film able script big it should have had all of themes. Where all the characters would go and end. Where the storyline as a whole would start and end.

But no what we got was haphazard attempt. And I do blame both Rian Johnson for his involvement and Abrams for not having enough thought in his brain to make a better finale to the trilogy.

He went with the his bread and butter. Nostalgia. It is the reason why I group him with the Zach Snyder and Michael Bay group. Overrated.

[phantom000]

The problem with Palpatine in the first place being in Episode 9 was because of entirely Rian Johnson having a blank check on making a movie how he wants. Which means killing off of the new big baddie in Snoke. And trying to do a redemption arc for Kylo somehow.

I think the reason a lot of reboots tend to fail is because they cannot seem to decide what they are trying to do. Are they trying to be just like the original or something new? The reboots that succeed, Star Trek: The Next Generation The Legend of Korra Battlestar Galactica (2004) and She-Ra and The Princesses of Power all knew exactly what they were going for and stuck to it.

This is what happened to TDST as it can't make up its mind whether its trying to be a remake of the OT or something new. The last scene of TFA, with Rey giving Luke the lightsaber is a symbol of what's wrong with the trilogy because it should have been the other way around; Luke passing the torch to a new generation.

Honestly, that movie would have worked just fine if you insert : ancient Sith Master who secretly took over the Imperial remnants when Palpatine died.

This is similar to what I might have done if I was asked to make the trilogy, or maybe just an outline. Ren is an emerging Sith who is trying to assume Palpatine's mantle and bring what's left of the Empire back together. He might even have discovered Palpatine's ghost who is trying to mentor him the same way Obi-wan did with luke.

It creates questions to be sure but they are different and it doesn't destroy Return of the Jedi.

It sorta does in the same way that Terminator 3, kinda ruins Terminator 1&2. The first two films compliment each other because they show Sarah coming full circle, rediscovering a hope for a better tomorrow because the future is no longer certain. The third film has the same issue as TDST because its trying to continue a story that is over. In effect they retconned the ending to ROTJ the same way they retconned the ending to Judgement Day because they toss out the ending that the previous films were building up to.

Legend of Korra doesn't have this problem because 1. it's a new story about the next generation taking up the mantle of the previous and 2. it followed what was setup by the last series, Zuko leads the Fire Nation into an age of peace and prosperity, Aang and Katarra get married and raise a family, Sokka returns to become the leader of the Southern Water Tribe, Toph founds a culture of metal benders.

Again the sequel trilogy fails on both these points as it tries to be the same as the original trilogy but to do that it has to throw out the ending to ROTJ which undermines a lot of what the OT was going for in the first place.

[Winter]

The problem with Palpatine in the first place being in Episode 9 was because of entirely Rian Johnson having a blank check on making a movie how he wants. Which means killing off of the new big baddie in Snoke. And trying to do a redemption arc for Kylo somehow.

I think the reason a lot of reboots tend to fail is because they cannot seem to decide what they are trying to do. Are they trying to be just like the original or something new? The reboots that succeed, Star Trek: The Next Generation The Legend of Korra Battlestar Galactica (2004) and She-Ra and The Princesses of Power all knew exactly what they were going for and stuck to it.

This is what happened to TDST as it can't make up its mind whether its trying to be a remake of the OT or something new. The last scene of TFA, with Rey giving Luke the lightsaber is a symbol of what's wrong with the trilogy because it should have been the other way around; Luke passing the torch to a new generation.

Honestly, that movie would have worked just fine if you insert : ancient Sith Master who secretly took over the Imperial remnants when Palpatine died.

This is similar to what I might have done if I was asked to make the trilogy, or maybe just an outline. Ren is an emerging Sith who is trying to assume Palpatine's mantle and bring what's left of the Empire back together. He might even have discovered Palpatine's ghost who is trying to mentor him the same way Obi-wan did with luke.

It creates questions to be sure but they are different and it doesn't destroy Return of the Jedi.

It sorta does in the same way that Terminator 3, kinda ruins Terminator 1&2. The first two films compliment each other because they show Sarah coming full circle, rediscovering a hope for a better tomorrow because the future is no longer certain. The third film has the same issue as TDST because its trying to continue a story that is over. In effect they retconned the ending to ROTJ the same way they retconned the ending to Judgement Day because they toss out the ending that the previous films were building up to.

Legend of Korra doesn't have this problem because 1. it's a new story about the next generation taking up the mantle of the previous and 2. it followed what was setup by the last series, Zuko leads the Fire Nation into an age of peace and prosperity, Aang and Katarra get married and raise a family, Sokka returns to become the leader of the Southern Water Tribe, Toph founds a culture of metal benders.

Again the sequel trilogy fails on both these points as it tries to be the same as the original trilogy but to do that it has to throw out the ending to ROTJ which undermines a lot of what the OT was going for in the first place.

Well, TLOK does have a few issues as part of a sequel to the Last Airbender. Katara becoming a stay at home mom, Aang apparently not becoming a very good dad, little to no Sokka and Toph becoming the chief of police and later leaving her family because of reasons. However, as you said, they still get several things right. When we meet up with any of the characters they STILL feel like the characters we knew from the first only having grown up. They now all serve as mentors and have taken what they learned from before to move on.

Another point that has to be addressed is that, again as you said, Korra built upon the foundation that Last Airbender left behind. Air takes place in Republic City, the legacy of the heroes of from the original series and part of Korra's arc is to protect that legacy and while Seasons 2 through 4 don't build upon that foundation they DID build of their own that goes from one story to another.

[Beastro]

Honestly, that movie would have worked just fine if you insert : ancient Sith Master who secretly took over the Imperial remnants when Palpatine died.

But they wanted to do their own thing that had little to do with Lucas and then realized that wasn't liked so.... ahhhh, let's throw Palpatine at people, everyone likes Palpatine, right?

You're right about how he makes shows and TV. He doesn't give a thought to things beyond what is cool. Thinking about it now, he's the Todd Howard of Hollywood.

[phantom000]

Honestly, that movie would have worked just fine if you insert : ancient Sith Master who secretly took over the Imperial remnants when Palpatine died.

But they wanted to do their own thing that had little to do with Lucas and then realized that wasn't liked so.... ahhhh, let's throw Palpatine at people, everyone likes Palpatine, right?

You're right about how he makes shows and TV. He doesn't give a thought to things beyond what is cool. Thinking about it now, he's the Todd Howard of Hollywood.

Like I said a lot of sequels and reboots fail because they can't seem to decide what exactly they are trying to do. I'm not well read on Hollywood, but it seems like its because of a disconnection between the studio and the creative team. This seems like what happened with TDST, Abrams wanted to do this but the studio wanted that and the story just goes around in circles.

I think this is why there doesn't seem to be plans for another trilogy because all Disney tried to sell tickets by using a bunch of fan favorite from the old films, but they ran out of characters to use and don't trust any new ones to take over the franchise. Even The Mandalorian is basically an attempt to cash in on Boba Fett and Yoda as more favorite characters.

[CharlesPhipps]

I dunno, I don't have any problem with Palpatine's resurrection. In fact, I'd argue it's the one decent part of this.

Oddly, it's that Palpatine is Rey's grandfather.

I would have actually accepted that she's a science experiment he made in a jar somewhere. Just not that he'd ever have a child and not dissect it or corrupt it.