Why Palpatine Influcing Kylo Ren was a Bad Idea

[Beastro]

That is the fundamental problem with comic book adventures and why they are and will always remain, shallow, trashy, "baby's first" mythology until they let go of that and mature.

Speaking as a literature teacher at the college level for a time, I found this attitude bullshit.

Comic books and Star Wars mean shit to people more than a lot of "literature" and you don't need to be "deep" to be the most important thing to people.

Or just fun.

Star Wars should have been fun first.

It doesn't have to be sophisticated, it has to be freed from the demands and limitations of repeating the same story over and over in the manner in which it does. It has to mature, and maturity means accepting limitations.

At the very least, it has to be freed from the demands of making money which is the real reason why no one is allowed to die in superhero stories; why permanently kill off a figure that you can constantly bring back and make a little extra money off of hyping their death and return?

Comics and fiction like Star Wars do have potential to have depth, they are just prevented from having it develop and that isn't at odd with fun. It is what people seek. Star Wars being fun wasn't just what made it resonate with people originally and why it continues to. I mean, people try to make a bloody real religion out of it.

There is more there than just dumb entertainment.

At the very least the Original Trilogy had a sense of scope and wonder to it that hasn't reappeared in SW since Return of the Jedi. I got a taste of that when young watching the old VHS tapes, but it mostly picked it up from my older brothers and how much it captured their imaginations.

I can see this with how people reacted between Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas. Tons enjoyed Fallout 3 for what it's good for, but even people who knew nothing of the original Fallout games connected with New Vegas despite Obsidian's typical problems. FONV had something there that was more than Todd Howard's usual fare.

[Winter]

That is the fundamental problem with comic book adventures and why they are and will always remain, shallow, trashy, "baby's first" mythology until they let go of that and mature.

Speaking as a literature teacher at the college level for a time, I found this attitude bullshit.

Comic books and Star Wars mean shit to people more than a lot of "literature" and you don't need to be "deep" to be the most important thing to people.

Or just fun.

Star Wars should have been fun first.

It doesn't have to be sophisticated, it has to be freed from the demands and limitations of repeating the same story over and over in the manner in which it does. It has to mature, and maturity means accepting limitations.

At the very least, it has to be freed from the demands of making money which is the real reason why no one is allowed to die in superhero stories; why permanently kill off a figure that you can constantly bring back and make a little extra money off of hyping their death and return?

Comics and fiction like Star Wars do have potential to have depth, they are just prevented from having it develop and that isn't at odd with fun. It is what people seek. Star Wars being fun wasn't just what made it resonate with people originally and why it continues to. I mean, people try to make a bloody real religion out of it.

There is more there than just dumb entertainment.

At the very least the Original Trilogy had a sense of scope and wonder to it that hasn't reappeared in SW since Return of the Jedi. I got a taste of that when young watching the old VHS tapes, but it mostly picked it up from my older brothers and how much it captured their imaginations.

I can see this with how people reacted between Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas. Tons enjoyed Fallout 3 for what it's good for, but even people who knew nothing of the original Fallout games connected with New Vegas despite Obsidian's typical problems. FONV had something there that was more than Todd Howard's usual fare.

Have you read original mythology there is just as much dumb entertainment there as there is in today's comics with tons of sex, Lazarus of the Week, writers getting little details wrong, continuity errors and Deus Ex Machinas.

The term Dues Ex Machina is from Greek mythology where Gods would come in to fix an unfixable problem in most stories. Characters dying then coming back to life was also just as common in Greek Mythology as it is in comic books and was given even less explanation because Gods could do anything unless the plot said otherwise.

And many stories were made by popular demand, sometimes by royals who wanted to have themselves look good. The Aeneid is a perfect example of this. The Aeneid is a lazy retread of The Iliad and The Odyssey made by Virgil who used it as a way to mock a ruler he didn't like that also doubles as a continuation of those two stories I mentioned even though there was no need to continue that story.

Stories have always been made to entertain people and have always had dumb plots with no consequences because what most people want is just a fun story with engaging characters. And at some point someone comes around that hurts the original story because there was a demand for that story to continue.

Comic books are just as stupid and contrived as the ancient Greek Mythos with just as many LGBT characters and historical propaganda. The only difference is there are now more female heroes who are more then just the heroes love interest.

[Beastro]

Characters dying then coming back to life was also just as common in Greek Mythology as it is in comic books and was given even less explanation because Gods could do anything unless the plot said otherwise.

Something like Catabasis is not the same as knocking off of a superhero to raise sales. There is symbolism in there that goes beyond a similar literal matter of life and death, as the rescue of Persephone illustrates. The same can be said of other stories like The Bacchae.

The question comes down to why they are done and what is being represented. I'm not disputing that comic books don't have their element, I'm saying they are prevented from developing further. And they do have that element, it's for that reason that Superman is so admired despite his blandness, Batman is such a favourite despite his dark nature (which imo, is reflective of him being the most human superhero from a psychological standpoint) and why Wolverine always steals the show among the X-Men.

and was given even less explanation because Gods could do anything unless the plot said otherwise.

Beyond the demands of the poets plot there was also expressing the world as the Ancients say it, that there were powers above them far greater that could and did interfere on a whim in their lives for their own reasons. They were not anymore benevolent or malevolent are we are being kind or mean to a nest of ants.

Within the demands of orchestrating a play there is the need for the god of the machine contrivance, but beyond that in the world as they say it gods did as they pleased and you better to mindful of that lest to paid the price of pissing one off.

And we can get lost here all day about this sort of stuff. I can appreciate pop culture fans taking a similar interest, but it's clear they are eager for more, hence why seeing the burst of superhero films in the past decade or so is such a catharsis for many I've run into.

And many stories were made by popular demand, sometimes by royals who wanted to have themselves look good. The Aeneid is a perfect example of this. The Aeneid is a lazy retread of The Iliad and The Odyssey made by Virgil who used it as a way to mock a ruler he didn't like that also doubles as a continuation of those two stories I mentioned even though there was no need to continue that story.

Yes, because the Aeneid has an element of propaganda in it. By that, I mean overt message delivering that comes at the expense of the free, unconscious storytelling to take place (and storytelling is a HELL of a lot more unconscious than people would like to think). One can see that in why most Christian film and video games don't just suck but do so in a cringe inducing way; they cannot let their themes stand on their own, they have to push them to the forefront just in case you don't get the message (That the story isn't about the story but you getting Salvation, they are means to an end).

The Aeneid is diminished by its wannabe elements seeking to too closely imitate the Greek stories the Romans admired and wish they had equivalents of.

Stories have always been made to entertain people and have always had dumb plots with no consequences because what most people want is just a fun story with engaging characters. And at some point someone comes around that hurts the original story because there was a demand for that story to continue.

Dumb fun stories do not last the test of time and that is for what is and isn't contained within them. superheroes aren't even a century old yet, Star Wars isn't even yet 50 years old. They are infants and I'm scared that whatever is in them of substances will be choked to death by the desire to make money off of them.

I've wondered about what modern works of our time will be known a thousand or two thousand years from now. I think the only real one that has a solid chance of anything is the Lord of the Rings.

Comic books are just as stupid and contrived as the ancient Greek Mythos with just as many LGBT characters and historical propaganda. The only difference is there are now more female heroes who are more then just the heroes love interest.

You are only looking upon them as a medium of entertainment and and a mechanical means to an end which is not how the Ancients saw storytelling at all. It ignores their symbolic nature and expressing the phenomenological realities of the world as we experience them. Most Greeks beyond a tiny minority certainly did not look upon them as simple stories with them being an intimate part of their belief system. Even those who had a more intellectual interest did not even if they were skeptical of their validity.

[Winter]

You are only looking upon them as a medium of entertainment and and a mechanical means to an end which is not how the Ancients saw storytelling at all. It ignores their symbolic nature and expressing the phenomenological realities of the world as we experience them. Most Greeks beyond a tiny minority certainly did not look upon them as simple stories with them being an intimate part of their belief system. Even those who had a more intellectual interest did not even if they were skeptical of their validity.

Humanity is not, and never has been, that hard to figure out. Stories are, and always have been, escapism. To go to another world and see an alien sky or just head to Iceland and see the Northern lights. To see heroes fight off hordes of zombies or to just to see a story where a two girls work up the courage to admit they love each other.

To help raise awareness of things that some of us don't understand like mental disabilities or trauma and that has been done in stories old and new.

I've seen and read several stories and I know I'll never see them all within my life time and one thing I've learned about stories be it classics like The Odyssey or the sillyness of Plan 9 From Outer Space is this. It was made by someone who wanted to say something and had WAAAY to much time on their hand.

I know some think that stories have gotten worse over the years but the honest truth is that storytelling is now, and always will be, a mixed bag. Sometimes we get a classic and others a dud but all stories have something of value. If you're willing to look.

[McAvoy]

Star Wars has been suffering from the 'big galactic threat' and Jedi versus Sith problem for a long time. One of the criticisms of the Legends books was that. I think that came around the YV (the aliens with biological enhancements and ships and I can't spell that name).

Well, that IS the main premises of the series, much like how Doctor Who is about a mad man/woman with a box going around the galaxy as they fight evil and save the day. Or how Star Trek is about exploring the unknown, or James Bond being a spy while doing very little spy work and so on. Even the Twilight Zone is all about the strange and unusual being explored be it someone becoming Santa Claus or being a book worm learning he's the last man on Earth.

Even if a series is rebooted it will ALWAYS retain it's main premises or else it's not that series. Tomb Raider was still about Lara Croft raiding tombs, She-Ra was still about the title character fighting the Evil Horde and Ghostbusters: Answer the Call was still about a bunch of scientist catching Ghosts with technology. So, this isn't so much a problem as it's just what the series is about and even Lucas' unmade Star Wars: Underworld series was still about this idea only explored from a different angle.

Can't speak for Doctor Who. But Star Trek, every series was different from the other. Though the base may be the same, it's core was that. But there was so much room to tell stories much different from the others. The fact we got Deep Space Nine for example, a series totally different than ALL of the series to date, shows that.

Star Wars in making it Jedi versus Sith, Good versus Evil and all of that makes the Star Wars universe limited. The Mandalorian shows there are plenty of stories to be told even if a Force wielder is in it.

[phantom000]

Star Wars has been suffering from the 'big galactic threat' and Jedi versus Sith problem for a long time. One of the criticisms of the Legends books was that. I think that came around the YV (the aliens with biological enhancements and ships and I can't spell that name).

Well, that IS the main premises of the series, much like how Doctor Who is about a mad man/woman with a box going around the galaxy as they fight evil and save the day. Or how Star Trek is about exploring the unknown, or James Bond being a spy while doing very little spy work and so on. Even the Twilight Zone is all about the strange and unusual being explored be it someone becoming Santa Claus or being a book worm learning he's the last man on Earth.

Even if a series is rebooted it will ALWAYS retain it's main premises or else it's not that series. Tomb Raider was still about Lara Croft raiding tombs, She-Ra was still about the title character fighting the Evil Horde and Ghostbusters: Answer the Call was still about a bunch of scientist catching Ghosts with technology. So, this isn't so much a problem as it's just what the series is about and even Lucas' unmade Star Wars: Underworld series was still about this idea only explored from a different angle.

This is an issue with an ongoing story. One thing I like about anime is they tend to end the story rather than keep it dragging on and on, long after it has lost any purpose or meaning. I have always been a fan of the original Transformers cartoon, but you can tell in the last season they honestly did not know what to do. The first 2 seasons had their issues but the creators clearly knew what the story was about and how to tell it.

Now some franchise can get around this problem more easily than others. Terminator, for instance, is much more limited because a story without Skynet, Judgement Day or time travel, isn't really Terminator. Like a story without Batman or Robin and isn't set in Gotham City, isn't really Batman anymore.

To me, what is really frustrating, is how ridiculously easy it would be for SW to avoid this problem because of the wide scope that is available. Its funny that some of the very first SW comics printed between ANH and ESB, actually had nothing to do with the Jedi, The Empire or The Rebel Alliance. They were about Han and Chewie having their own adventures. You can fit almost anything you can think of into this setting so why do you keep going back to the exact same thing you have already done?

I feel like SW doesn't have much of a future, at least on the big screen, because what the creators want to do, and what the studio wants to see are too different to fit together. And what the studios want is exactly what other franchises are doing just as well, so why bother?

[McAvoy]

Star Wars has been suffering from the 'big galactic threat' and Jedi versus Sith problem for a long time. One of the criticisms of the Legends books was that. I think that came around the YV (the aliens with biological enhancements and ships and I can't spell that name).

Well, that IS the main premises of the series, much like how Doctor Who is about a mad man/woman with a box going around the galaxy as they fight evil and save the day. Or how Star Trek is about exploring the unknown, or James Bond being a spy while doing very little spy work and so on. Even the Twilight Zone is all about the strange and unusual being explored be it someone becoming Santa Claus or being a book worm learning he's the last man on Earth.

Even if a series is rebooted it will ALWAYS retain it's main premises or else it's not that series. Tomb Raider was still about Lara Croft raiding tombs, She-Ra was still about the title character fighting the Evil Horde and Ghostbusters: Answer the Call was still about a bunch of scientist catching Ghosts with technology. So, this isn't so much a problem as it's just what the series is about and even Lucas' unmade Star Wars: Underworld series was still about this idea only explored from a different angle.

This is an issue with an ongoing story. One thing I like about anime is they tend to end the story rather than keep it dragging on and on, long after it has lost any purpose or meaning. I have always been a fan of the original Transformers cartoon, but you can tell in the last season they honestly did not know what to do. The first 2 seasons had their issues but the creators clearly knew what the story was about and how to tell it.

Now some franchise can get around this problem more easily than others. Terminator, for instance, is much more limited because a story without Skynet, Judgement Day or time travel, isn't really Terminator. Like a story without Batman or Robin and isn't set in Gotham City, isn't really Batman anymore.

To me, what is really frustrating, is how ridiculously easy it would be for SW to avoid this problem because of the wide scope that is available. Its funny that some of the very first SW comics printed between ANH and ESB, actually had nothing to do with the Jedi, The Empire or The Rebel Alliance. They were about Han and Chewie having their own adventures. You can fit almost anything you can think of into this setting so why do you keep going back to the exact same thing you have already done?

I feel like SW doesn't have much of a future, at least on the big screen, because what the creators want to do, and what the studio wants to see are too different to fit together. And what the studios want is exactly what other franchises are doing just as well, so why bother?

That's my point. Star Wars has a whole galaxy, with tens of thousands of years of history and we get stuck with the Jedi versus Sith the whole way through. Then we got more recently a retelling of the good guys fighting the good fight against all odds against a juggernaut. Twice, with the second time where Disney couldn't figure out how to make a sequel trilogy without hitting the same exact checkmark as the OT.

At least the prequels as bad as they are themselves didn't do that.

[Winter]

Can't speak for Doctor Who. But Star Trek, every series was different from the other. Though the base may be the same, it's core was that. But there was so much room to tell stories much different from the others. The fact we got Deep Space Nine for example, a series totally different than ALL of the series to date, shows that.

Star Wars in making it Jedi versus Sith, Good versus Evil and all of that makes the Star Wars universe limited. The Mandalorian shows there are plenty of stories to be told even if a Force wielder is in it.

Fair point but DS9 is the exception to the rule and keep in mind that while the show is well loved now and was fairly popular back when it was first coming out it's not as well known as TOS or TNG.

To go off point, how many Greek Heroes do you know who AREN'T a child of a God, how many heroes in the Bible aren't aided or tested by God in some way and what do you know of Sun Wukong and his Journey to the West? Series are repetitive and hit the same basic beats every time and while some may change up said formula for the most part the series will keep to the same ideas. DS9 is a different, great, but Voyager, Discovery, Enterprise, Picard and even the films all follow premise set by TOS.

To date the only series that I can think of (that is well known among pop-culture) is Dragon Age. Origins is about the Grey Wardens stopping the Blight and Awakening has a similar idea by dealing with the aftermath of the 5th Blight. DA2, however, changed things up by having you deal with three threats and while 2 tie into the Blight DA2 has no central threat. DAI has a similar plot to DAO, stopping a dark spawn from destroying the world, BUT changes up everything around it and the after math deals with a threat that is ties into your rise to power more then battle with in the first two acts of the game.

Again, series get an idea and they rarely, if ever, stray from that idea. For a series to change things up it MUST feel natural like DS9 or DA.

And then we have the flip side of the coin, a series not changing at all and just repeating what came before in the hopes of capturing what worked before and some times this works. But most of the time you just end up with TDST which is just copying the notes of TOT and changing a few things around to make it look like it's doing something new.

[CharlesPhipps]

"Why do we get Jedi vs. Sith all the time?"

Answer for me:

"Because I didn't come to Star Wars to watch Space Marines and Tau?"

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The structure of Force Awakens is emulative of New Hope, but it's fine for telling a new story. Inversely, the negative reception to Last Jedi had to do with it sprawling too much, though it's still emulating Empire Strikes Back in structure. The positive reception on the other hand greatly applauded its ability to expand the story, I'd say stronger than that of Force Awakens in the same vein.