Why Palpatine Influcing Kylo Ren was a Bad Idea

[phantom000]

"Why do we get Jedi vs. Sith all the time?"

Answer for me:

"Because I didn't come to Star Wars to watch Space Marines and Tau?"

My only complaint is that there doesn't seem to be much variety. Like every Sith is just another Palpatine and every Jedi is another Obi-Wan. Part of what makes the MCU work is that each character is a different take on the idea of a hero. I love that little exchange between Stark and Rogers in Avengers.

"You would never lay down on a wire so your buddy could crawl over you."

"No, I would just cut the wire."

I love it because it illustrates the basic difference between the two. Stark is an engineer, he solves problems; the wire causes a problem so just remove it. Rogers is a soldier, he accomplishes an objective; so you help your team mate because it achieves the objective.

SW feels like they are trying to do the same thing but make everyone Captain America. Getting back to Avatar for a moment, they knew they couldn't just make another Aang and so Korra was designed to be completely different, just as her 'team avatar' was also set up with different dynamics.

[Winter]

Dumb fun stories do not last the test of time and that is for what is and isn't contained within them. superheroes aren't even a century old yet, Star Wars isn't even yet 50 years old. They are infants and I'm scared that whatever is in them of substances will be choked to death by the desire to make money off of them.

Kung Fu Panda is over 10 years old and people still remember it, He-Man is over 30 years old and people still remember it, Plan 9 From Out Space is over 60 years old and people still remember it. Superheroes are closely approaching 100 years since Superman first appeared in a news strip and the impact of them is more then just a power fantasy as they can and have saved people in the real world.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Fukqa5aPhh8/ ... uicide.png

Also, just a fun fact, did you know that Charles Dickens considered A Christmas Carol as one of his lesser works? He actually made it just to help ends meet and wrote the whole thing in about a week (maybe a month). So, the single most iconic Christmas story that has nothing to do with Santa and Christ was written because Dickens needed to make ends meet and was even considered by Dickens himself to be largely inferior to his other works.

That is about as shallow a reason as one can get to make a story and it's one that's been around for 177 years. Let's take a look at one of the greatest writers of all time, William Shakespeare. Shakespeare was fairly popular back in his day but no more so then any other writer in his time and many of his stories aren't exactly the greatest stories ever told and 98% are hardly original. Of the all the plays we have only 5 are original work the rest are either Historical Pieces (most of which are propaganda) or adaptations of other stories.

Romeo and Juliet which is about 2 dumb teens and their equally dumb families fighting for reasons that are never elaborated on and as a result of everyone being stupid several people get killed and the title characters take their own life. The play even tells you at the start how this is going to end so there are very few surprises before the story even starts. This is considered one of Shakespeare's most popular stories and is easily the most iconic love story of all time. Hell, Much Ado About Nothing is as stupid and fun as a Shakespeare play can get and it's still hugely popular.

You don't need to have a story that is deep and meaningful to stand the test of time. You don't even need to be a technically GOOD story to stand the test of time. You just need to connect with people and as a result they will keep that story with them forever and often they will share that story with their kids and their children's children.

If Plan 9 From Outer Space can stand the test of time then Superheroes and Star Wars will be just fine. Dumb and Fun, is often enough.

[phantom000]

Dumb fun stories do not last the test of time and that is for what is and isn't contained within them. superheroes aren't even a century old yet, Star Wars isn't even yet 50 years old. They are infants and I'm scared that whatever is in them of substances will be choked to death by the desire to make money off of them.

Kung Fu Panda is over 10 years old and people still remember it, He-Man is over 30 years old and people still remember it, Plan 9 From Out Space is over 60 years old and people still remember it. Superheroes are closely approaching 100 years since Superman first appeared in a news strip and the impact of them is more then just a power fantasy as they can and have saved people in the real world.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Fukqa5aPhh8/ ... uicide.png

There are a couple points I would like to make.

First off...

Also, just a fun fact, did you know that Charles Dickens considered A Christmas Carol as one of his lesser works? He actually made it just to help ends meet and wrote the whole thing in about a week (maybe a month). So, the single most iconic Christmas story that has nothing to do with Santa and Christ was written because Dickens needed to make ends meet and was even considered by Dickens himself to be largely inferior to his other works.

That is about as shallow a reason as one can get to make a story and it's one that's been around for 177 years. Let's take a look at one of the greatest writers of all time, William Shakespeare. Shakespeare was fairly popular back in his day but no more so then any other writer in his time and many of his stories aren't exactly the greatest stories ever told and 98% are hardly original. Of the all the plays we have only 5 are original work the rest are either Historical Pieces (most of which are propaganda) or adaptations of other stories.

Shakespeare and Dickens, as well as others like Chaucer and Dante, are writers whose stories have been re-invented countless times. Their work has been retold again and again, but usually it's someone else interpretation of it. Every film version of A Christmas Carol is someone else telling the story. You could perhaps make an argument that each would qualify as a different story, but I personally won't go that far. Still, saying they are all the same because it's A Christmas Carol is really over-simplifying it.

Romeo and Juliet which is about 2 dumb teens and their equally dumb families fighting for reasons that are never elaborated on and as a result of everyone being stupid several people get killed and the title characters take their own life. The play even tells you at the start how this is going to end so there are very few surprises before the story even starts. This is considered one of Shakespeare's most popular stories and is easily the most iconic love story of all time. Hell, Much Ado About Nothing is as stupid and fun as a Shakespeare play can get and it's still hugely popular.

There is a difference between a story that has been retold and reinvented over and over again, like Beowulf Robin Hood or even Cinderella and a single story that is ongoing continuously, like Foundation and Game of Thrones I think part of the reason Shakespeare has remained relevant for so long is because his work can be easily reinterpreted by each generation. Superheroes, especially ones that have been in print for decades like Superman or Spiderman, are a kind of fuzzy grey area between these two because in theory it is a single story, but they have been written by so many different people that each has written their own version of the character. Things can get interesting when you have someone writing a character they have been reading about for as long as they can remember because that's how long the comics have been in print. The result is that the same character can be radically different. That is what DC wanted to explore in Crisis on Infinite Earths because the Superman of 1985 was not the Superman of 1938.

You don't need to have a story that is deep and meaningful to stand the test of time. You don't even need to be a technically GOOD story to stand the test of time. You just need to connect with people and as a result they will keep that story with them forever and often they will share that story with their kids and their children's children.

If Plan 9 From Outer Space can stand the test of time then Superheroes and Star Wars will be just fine. Dumb and Fun, is often enough.

"Deep," "meaningful" and especially "good" are very subjective terms because people usually have very different ideas on what they consider "good" and even if two people agree that something is "good" they can have very different opinions on how or why it is good.

[McAvoy]

The structure of Force Awakens is emulative of New Hope, but it's fine for telling a new story. Inversely, the negative reception to Last Jedi had to do with it sprawling too much, though it's still emulating Empire Strikes Back in structure. The positive reception on the other hand greatly applauded its ability to expand the story, I'd say stronger than that of Force Awakens in the same vein.

As much as I dislike The Last Jedi, I do like something different was tried story wise. I think usurping expectations went too far, among other things. I do think it's definitely better than Rise of Skywalker since that movie is just one giant mess.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The structure of Force Awakens is emulative of New Hope, but it's fine for telling a new story. Inversely, the negative reception to Last Jedi had to do with it sprawling too much, though it's still emulating Empire Strikes Back in structure. The positive reception on the other hand greatly applauded its ability to expand the story, I'd say stronger than that of Force Awakens in the same vein.

As much as I dislike The Last Jedi, I do like something different was tried story wise. I think usurping expectations went too far, among other things. I do think it's definitely better than Rise of Skywalker since that movie is just one giant mess.

I'm not exactly sure what was "usurped." There's the bit about her parents, but I'm not sure what substance around it as a plot point was supposed to stir it more. I don't mean to come off like Confused Matthew here, but conceptually the mirror scene was pretty much being used as a hot iron to flatten out whatever was going on, more as if to specifically show someone a blank canvas and encourage the possibilities; and you can say that referring to the character, the audience, or the next filmmaker. And I'm really not sure which.

[McAvoy]

The structure of Force Awakens is emulative of New Hope, but it's fine for telling a new story. Inversely, the negative reception to Last Jedi had to do with it sprawling too much, though it's still emulating Empire Strikes Back in structure. The positive reception on the other hand greatly applauded its ability to expand the story, I'd say stronger than that of Force Awakens in the same vein.

As much as I dislike The Last Jedi, I do like something different was tried story wise. I think usurping expectations went too far, among other things. I do think it's definitely better than Rise of Skywalker since that movie is just one giant mess.

I'm not exactly sure what was "usurped." There's the bit about her parents, but I'm not sure what substance around it as a plot point was supposed to stir it more. I don't mean to come off like Confused Matthew here, but conceptually the mirror scene was pretty much being used as a hot iron to flatten out whatever was going on, more as if to specifically show someone a blank canvas and encourage the possibilities; and you can say that referring to the character, the audience, or the next filmmaker. And I'm really not sure which.

Yeah that was a bad mangling of 'subverting' through my phone's autocorrect.

Making her into a nobody with nobody parents I didn't mind. Not everything has to revolve around established characters. I haven't really thought that much into the mirror scene though.

[Winter]

Yeah that was a bad mangling of 'subverting' through my phone's autocorrect.

Making her into a nobody with nobody parents I didn't mind. Not everything has to revolve around established characters. I haven't really thought that much into the mirror scene though.

I honestly would be okay with the whole "Just Rey" idea, I really would, as long as they did something with it. Sadly, THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT!!! In Either Version of E9.

So Rey has no connection to anyone, how does that change what we've learned about her looking back and how does this change her moving forward? Luke learning that Vader was his father changed how Luke viewed himself and changed his goal from trying to avenge his father to trying to redeem him and it changes how we look at A New Hope. But Rey is unchanged by this and the films NEVER explore this idea and instead just returns to the issue that EVERYONE wanted to be over by now and that issue being "The mystery of Rey's parents".

Sorry to keep using this but it honestly handled this SOOO much better, in She-Ra the mystery of Adora's past and why she became She-Ra, her connection to Mara (the last She-Ra before Adora) is a major part of her character arc throughout the first 4 seasons. And this is an arc with twists and turns that change the story looking back and moving forward until it's fully resolved at the end of Season 4 when Adora makes a choice that is, IMO, one of her greatest moments.

And after everything she went through throughout the last four seasons Adora is shown to be broken. She keeps throwing herself into life threatening situations with no regards to her safety and has been refusing to even sleep and when she does she has dreams that make her question if her choice at the end of season 4 was the right one.

Rey doesn't have that. She learns her parents solid her for drinking money and that she has no place in this galaxy and must do what she thinks is right. And after that moment, which should be THE defining moment, the Trilogy goes on like nothing happened and she ends the film with no real development. She started the film as someone who hated Kylo Ren for the death of one of her childhood heroes, saw Luke as a hero and doesn't know what her role in all this is and she ends the film as someone who hated Kylo Ren for the death of one of her childhood heroes, saw Luke as a hero and doesn't know what her role in all this is.

Recently Gary McKay was given the role of General Manager at BioWare and has gone on record saying that it is his intention to restore the companies damaged reputation and have the company focus on Dragon Age, Mass Effect and Star Wars: The Old Republic. He focus, as he's said, is to focus on what made BioWare games so beloved before by making high quality games with rich stories, unforgettable characters, and vast worlds.

I bring this up in relation to Rey because McKay has done something that is rather important, he's addressed the problem and is made it clear that he intends to fix it. No one at Disney or Lucas Film have been willing to directly address the issues with Rey and that issue is, Rey has no growth as a character. She started off good but Abrams never bothered to give her a start, he left her as a complete blank slate and then handed her to Johnson who was so uninterested in her that he cut out one of her most important scenes and just glossed over what should have been a defining moment for her because he was more interested in the conflict between Luke & Kylo and once Rey stopped being involved in that he tossed her aside when she was of no further use to him.

And that leads to Duel of the Fates and Rise of Skywalker. Rey has no set arc, her defining moment is a foot note in the last film and she's had no real development to speak of. Is it any wonder that neither version of E9 gave her almost nothing to do?

[CharlesPhipps]

If Anakin was created by Palpatine and Rey was Palpatine's granddaughter does that mean that Rey is actually Luke's cousin? Does that mean that Reylo is a cousin romance once-removed? Damn Tatooine and Jaaku rednecks.

[phantom000]

If Anakin was created by Palpatine and Rey was Palpatine's granddaughter does that mean that Rey is actually Luke's cousin? Does that mean that Reylo is a cousin romance once-removed? Damn Tatooine and Jaaku rednecks.

This is why they needed to get away from Palpatine as the big bad of SW. It just keeps making everything more and more convoluted and undermines anything they try to do aside from just retelling the OT, which is a weak concept at best.

[Winter]

If Anakin was created by Palpatine and Rey was Palpatine's granddaughter does that mean that Rey is actually Luke's cousin? Does that mean that Reylo is a cousin romance once-removed? Damn Tatooine and Jaaku rednecks.

This is why they needed to get away from Palpatine as the big bad of SW. It just keeps making everything more and more convoluted and undermines anything they try to do aside from just retelling the OT, which is a weak concept at best.

The idea that Palpatine created Anakin raises a LOT of questions that are likely never going to be answered and if they ever are they will likely make little to no sense. If Palpatine created Anakin why didn't he locate him to obtain as much power as possible instead of letting him be found by the Jedi which is one of the factors that ultimately led to Palpatine's death? Why would Palpatine bother locating and recruiting Sith apprentice if he can literally just will someone into existence and make the chosen one? How did the Jedi NOT notice THAT amount of power being used when they can sense a single person across the galaxy doing a simple Force Pull?

She-Ra, you're up again!

It's revealed that only a first one can use the Sword of Protection and that Mara had sealed Etheria in an alternate dimension. In order to complete her objective Light Hope used all her power (which was likely, and unknowingly, aided by Hordak's attempts to create a portal) to open a portal and bring Adora to Etheria so she could become She-Ra. However, Light Hope's systems were severally damaged as a result of being off-line for several years so she ended up dropping Adora off within Horde Territory so Light Hope couldn't get Adora as she had planned.

Few questions, all answered and all fit what we learn over the series.