Why Palpatine Influcing Kylo Ren was a Bad Idea

[McAvoy]

We already had the tiny group versus the huge group in the Prequels.

I would have just had the First Order be the result of the galactic civil war not ending in a victory but a premature treaty. Leading to a Cold War and the realization you can't let fascism stay around.

You mean the Original Trilogy. Prequels, the Clone Wars was basically fought by near equals.

Tying back to The Thrawn Trilogy for a moment one thing that I liked about it as a sequel to the first two Trilogies is how it brings everything full circle and that includes how powerful the opposing sides are. TPT starts with two armies that are, as CharlesPhipps put it, near equals while TOT has the war being fought between the overall weaker rebels and the seemingly infinite Empire.

TTT is interesting as both sides are trying to recover from the battle of Endor and are therefore on more equal footing. Thrawn himself notes just how weak the Empire is and spends the first two novels trying to locate a lost fleet of Dreadnoughts that are actually weaker then a regular Star Destroyer just to try and tilt the odds in his favor.

TDST is just TOT only now it raises more questions because the First Order is and the Resistance are buying from the black market which raises the questions of who solid the First Order the more advance weapons, where the Hell did Starkiller base come from and if arms dealers have this sort of fire power then why are they selling it instead of just using it to take over the Galaxy? If it was a case of just buying out old ships like what we saw in TOT that would be fine but how are they getting the supped up version of the Empire's toys?

The Thrawn Trilogy works the best if we were talking about making a Episode 7 in the late 80's.

But you have to change a bit of it, if we are talking about Episode 7 in 2015 which is 30 years later. Perhaps you can rewrite it as a grand Master plan of Thrawn with a fully ready fleet to engage the New Republic.

Like Thrawn sends assassins of some kind to attack the Jedi. Not Sith, but something else. Thrawn comes in taking planets with ease with the New Republic reeling back not prepared at all.

[Winter]

The Thrawn Trilogy works the best if we were talking about making a Episode 7 in the late 80's.

But you have to change a bit of it, if we are talking about Episode 7 in 2015 which is 30 years later. Perhaps you can rewrite it as a grand Master plan of Thrawn with a fully ready fleet to engage the New Republic.

Like Thrawn sends assassins of some kind to attack the Jedi. Not Sith, but something else. Thrawn comes in taking planets with ease with the New Republic reeling back not prepared at all.

I don't agree as proven by the Mandalorian which was VERY scaled back from what we got in the films with the biggest action scene being the Krayt Dragon fight at the start of Season 2. Also, Thrawn is good but he's not THAT good. Zahn himself got annoyed at how much other writers played Thrawn up and in the Hand of Thrawn Duology he made it clear that Thrawn was not as clever as everyone made him out to be.

In TTT Thrawn is dealing with fewer resources and has to pick his battles, only going into a fight he knows he can win and avoiding any other conflict because he knows he has to play things smart. One of the best things about TTT is that the first two novels are more of a spy and political thriller instead of a straight up action-adventure story. It's not until The Last Command that it becomes a more "Standard" Star Wars story.

Honestly if TTT was adapted and released today I think most would greatly appropriate the smaller scale after TDST's overblown Sequel Escalation. To switch series for a moment it's been hinted at that Dragon Age 4 will be more of a spy/detective story with a greater focus on your companions personal stories and work as more as a setup for Dragon Age 5. If true this is a smart move as we've already had a game with armies battling it out and facing would be Gods so going for a smaller scale story would help to keep things feeling fresh and I think the same thing would apply here.

Return of the Jedi was a MASSIVE story with arguably the biggest space battle in the series, a rather intense ground fight and a duel for the Soul of Anakin Skywalker. Heir to the Empire was a PERFECT decompression chamber for anyone going from E6 to the Original E7. Just having everything be like it was but BIGGER is lazy. The first chapter in a Sequel Trilogy shouldn't start on a massive battle but keep things small and personal. The Empire Strikes Back is the smallest scale Star Wars in the series and is often considered the best film in the series I think The Force Awakens should have followed suit.

[McAvoy]

The Thrawn Trilogy works the best if we were talking about making a Episode 7 in the late 80's.

But you have to change a bit of it, if we are talking about Episode 7 in 2015 which is 30 years later. Perhaps you can rewrite it as a grand Master plan of Thrawn with a fully ready fleet to engage the New Republic.

Like Thrawn sends assassins of some kind to attack the Jedi. Not Sith, but something else. Thrawn comes in taking planets with ease with the New Republic reeling back not prepared at all.

I don't agree as proven by the Mandalorian which was VERY scaled back from what we got in the films with the biggest action scene being the Krayt Dragon fight at the start of Season 2. Also, Thrawn is good but he's not THAT good. Zahn himself got annoyed at how much other writers played Thrawn up and in the Hand of Thrawn Duology he made it clear that Thrawn was not as clever as everyone made him out to be.

In TTT Thrawn is dealing with fewer resources and has to pick his battles, only going into a fight he knows he can win and avoiding any other conflict because he knows he has to play things smart. One of the best things about TTT is that the first two novels are more of a spy and political thriller instead of a straight up action-adventure story. It's not until The Last Command that it becomes a more "Standard" Star Wars story.

Honestly if TTT was adapted and released today I think most would greatly appropriate the smaller scale after TDST's overblown Sequel Escalation. To switch series for a moment it's been hinted at that Dragon Age 4 will be more of a spy/detective story with a greater focus on your companions personal stories and work as more as a setup for Dragon Age 5. If true this is a smart move as we've already had a game with armies battling it out and facing would be Gods so going for a smaller scale story would help to keep things feeling fresh and I think the same thing would apply here.

Return of the Jedi was a MASSIVE story with arguably the biggest space battle in the series, a rather intense ground fight and a duel for the Soul of Anakin Skywalker. Heir to the Empire was a PERFECT decompression chamber for anyone going from E6 to the Original E7. Just having everything be like it was but BIGGER is lazy. The first chapter in a Sequel Trilogy shouldn't start on a massive battle but keep things small and personal. The Empire Strikes Back is the smallest scale Star Wars in the series and is often considered the best film in the series I think The Force Awakens should have followed suit.

If going by the Mandalorian than we are talking small scale stuff. Especially in the context of the series. But what I am talking about is a big baddie for Episode 7 context.

But yeah we can talk about how Thrawn was a player post Endor and eventually failed if we were to go by Legends and perhaps The Mandalorian timeline.

[Winter]

If going by the Mandalorian than we are talking small scale stuff. Especially in the context of the series. But what I am talking about is a big baddie for Episode 7 context.

Alright, how about this the first film has an established threat, someone who is a cross between Thrawn and Palpatine, he promotes people based on skill but ignores the rest, a powerful Force users but not as powerful as Palpatine or Luke so he must rely on his cunning. During the first chapter of the new part of the "Skywalker Saga" we're also introduced to a new major character, a Jedi Knight who is a prodigy, skilled like no one else and insanely powerful, the first time we see him he talks out a Chicken Walker in 1 hit by crushing it with one hand.

First film we have our established Big Bad and then we come to E8 and here comes the twist, that Jedi Knight falls to the Dark Side. He learns something that drives him mad and he turns against the heroes but also against the First Order as the ending of E8 has him fighting with both the new Trio and the Dragon of the Big Bad fighting him and all of them barely coming out of this fight alive and only barely able to injury the former Jedi Knight.

However, despite this and the fear of his possible return E9 has the New Republic and First Order fighting against each other only for their to be some sort of infighting going on between both sides that results in the Republic being brought to the edge of destruction and the First Order being destroyed and then, the Fallen Jedi Returns as the true final villain.

This leads us to E10 with the remnants of both sides works together and building alliances to fight this new threat who is searching for a way to bring the galaxy to it's knees with a weapon. The weapon that inspired the Death Star, one so old and from an anchent Empire that was so corrupt that it destroyed itself and this weapon is now connected to the Force itself. The Starkiller.

In the end the Fallen Jedi is destroyed as is the Starkiller and the new Emperor signs a peace treaty with the Republic.

Thoughts?

[CharlesPhipps]

You mean the Original Trilogy. Prequels, the Clone Wars was basically fought by near equals.

Nope. The CIS was able to fight a war but it was always meant to lose.

I wouldn't want a trilogy based on fighting plucky rebels, fascists or not, because there's not much "Star Wars" about it.

[McAvoy]

You mean the Original Trilogy. Prequels, the Clone Wars was basically fought by near equals.

Nope. The CIS was able to fight a war but it was always meant to lose.

I wouldn't want a trilogy based on fighting plucky rebels, fascists or not, because there's not much "Star Wars" about it.

The CIS didn't know that.

Going by the The Clone Wars show they were about roughly even with the Republic steadily gaining ground. This wasn't a small group of ships like the Rebels or the Resistance. It was a full fleet.

I don't even Dooku really knew the endgame for the war.

[phantom000]

If going by the Mandalorian than we are talking small scale stuff. Especially in the context of the series. But what I am talking about is a big baddie for Episode 7 context.

Alright, how about this the first film has an established threat, someone who is a cross between Thrawn and Palpatine, he promotes people based on skill but ignores the rest, a powerful Force users but not as powerful as Palpatine or Luke so he must rely on his cunning. During the first chapter of the new part of the "Skywalker Saga" we're also introduced to a new major character, a Jedi Knight who is a prodigy, skilled like no one else and insanely powerful, the first time we see him he talks out a Chicken Walker in 1 hit by crushing it with one hand.

First film we have our established Big Bad and then we come to E8 and here comes the twist, that Jedi Knight falls to the Dark Side. He learns something that drives him mad and he turns against the heroes but also against the First Order as the ending of E8 has him fighting with both the new Trio and the Dragon of the Big Bad fighting him and all of them barely coming out of this fight alive and only barely able to injury the former Jedi Knight.

However, despite this and the fear of his possible return E9 has the New Republic and First Order fighting against each other only for their to be some sort of infighting going on between both sides that results in the Republic being brought to the edge of destruction and the First Order being destroyed and then, the Fallen Jedi Returns as the true final villain.

This leads us to E10 with the remnants of both sides works together and building alliances to fight this new threat who is searching for a way to bring the galaxy to it's knees with a weapon. The weapon that inspired the Death Star, one so old and from an anchent Empire that was so corrupt that it destroyed itself and this weapon is now connected to the Force itself. The Starkiller.

In the end the Fallen Jedi is destroyed as is the Starkiller and the new Emperor signs a peace treaty with the Republic.

Thoughts?

Interesting. I always thought, what SW was missing was a third party that could act as a spoiler between the Empire and Rebels. I'm not being ironic or condescending, I think having a third party pursuing their own agenda can make a story more interesting, and the idea of them becoming the big bad at the end would also be neat.

Also, I always thought the Jedi and Sith were kinda boring because they seem like the same story told over and over again. I could see this three way conflict between Luke, Rey and the Fallen Jedi about how to rebuild the Jedi order. Luke wanting to rebuild the order exactly as it was, The Fallen Jedi believing the Jedi Order should control the Republic and Rey trying to decide which path to follow, perhaps ultimately rejecting both and forging a new path of her own.

I could see Rey on a twisted subversion of Anakin's arc, where she struggles as a padawan under Luke and eventually becomes a sith but something snaps her back and she kills her master and assumes his throne.

Meanwhile the Fallen Jedi, with the help of the Starkiller has seized control of the New Republic and renames it 'The Galactic Order.' With Luke dead all that remains of the New Republic is a group of soldiers, citizens and a few jedi padawans. All hope seems lost when they are attacked by the Galactic Order but are then rescued by Imperial forces under the command of Empress Rey.

The last film would be about Rey and The Resistance joining forces to attack The Galactic Order with a final confrontation between Rey and the Fallen Jedi, basically a good sith against an evil jedi as both represent a twisted version of their sides.

[McAvoy]

A third party would help. It has always been between two sides. Usually good versus evil. At least that would be different than what we have so far.

[CharlesPhipps]

A third party would help. It has always been between two sides. Usually good versus evil. At least that would be different than what we have so far.

The thing about star Wars is that then the good guys would try to make peace.

[Winter]

A third party would help. It has always been between two sides. Usually good versus evil. At least that would be different than what we have so far.

The thing about star Wars is that then the good guys would try to make peace.

Yeah, and that's been done before, rather successfully in the Original EU. It was actually something that made real world News that the war between the New Republic and the Empire had ended. It wasn't on the front page or anything (I think was like on page 6 or something) but it has been done.