Death of a Hero: Luke Skywalker vs. Mara Hope

[Winter]

As many of you know, I'm not the biggest fan of The Last Jedi and one of my least favorite things about the film is the Death of Luke Skywalker as it feels pointless, contrived and uses a power that has never been seen before and will likely never be seen again. However, I understand what the film is TRYING to do, giving Luke a death that is sticks to the concept of what a Jedi is with Luke not dying in combat. I get that, I just think it was executed extremely poorly because Luke died via crank calling his nephew.

I've also made it no secret that I see She-Ra and the Princesses of Power as The Star Wars Disney Sequel Trilogy done right and yet another great example of that is how Mara's Death was handled in that show. Long story short we've been told that Mara went insane but we learn that she was actually never crazy but was in fact a hero who died knowing she would be seen as the villain.

It reminds me of a quote from Babylon 5's Comes The Inquisitor-

"Are you willing to die friendless, alone, deserted by everyone? Because that's what may be required of you in the war that is to come."

Couple of things I want to note is that I've shown this scene to a two people one who said they weren't a fan of the new She-Ra and another who's never seen the series. BOTH were in tears at the end of Mara's scene despite the fact that Mara has, at most, 20 minutes of screen time across the entire series.

What I dislike most about Luke's death is that I feel NOTHING except frustration. Not hatred, I hate the scene where Luke considers killing Ben Solo in his sleep, I hate that Luke never morons Han's death. I hate that Luke blames the Jedi for a mistake that he made and I hate how Luke hid because he didn't want anyone to know that he was the one who caused this whole mess. But his death, I'm frustrated because this isn't the character I grew up with, I'm frustrated because of everything that TLJ discarded about Luke and all the scenes I mentioned before that led up to this moment. So, when Luke dies I don't see it as awesome or enraging, I see it as a lazily written fan fic of someone who wanted Luke to act the way he thinks Luke should have acted.

Mara's death isn't awesome, it's tragic as for a while I DID buy into Light Hope's BS and seeing who Mara really was and seeing her give up her life knowing how she would likely be remembered BROKE ME!!! I'm serious I was in tears at the end of that episode and had to stop watching because I needed at least 3 minutes to recover. I felt more for the death of a character I only knew properly for 10 minutes then I did one of my childhood heroes.

I honestly have never this broken up over a characters death since Mordin Solus in Mass Effect 3 and that guy indirectly killed god knows how many Krogan. When I feel more broken up for the death of someone I just met and a someone who modified an effective sterility plague then Luke F#cking Skywalker that's a BAD Sign!

But back to Mara's death and why I feel it's better then Luke's. Mara died to save the universe and did so knowing she would never be seen as a hero but used her last words to encourage Adora, to let her know that she believed in her and that she had the power to save the world they both loved. She died knowing the woman she loved was taken from her and reprogrammed to activate a machine that would kill thousands of innocent people and she died knowing that in the end her efforts to save everyone would be undone and that her only hope would be with the new She-Ra. And to top it all off we later learn that Mara never wanted to die but did so in the hopes that Adora could have a life of her own.

Luke died to crank call his nephew with a power that is worse then useless and in the end he died as a failure who never accomplished anything and left the task of fixing his problems to someone else and never faced the consequences of his own mistakes. Luke's death, in my opinion, was lazy. Mara's death was powerful.

[McAvoy]

That Force projection I think may have turned up in the books before. But not like that.

Luke in The Last Jedi was basically because Rian Johnson wanted to subvert expectations. Everything we wanted and thought for Luke to be for the second movie, he trashed so he could subvert expectations.

You could argue but there is little evidence of it, that the higher ups didn't want Luke to overshadow Rey in any way. Perhaps that is true. But good writing could get around that.

Or worse, Rian Johnson was handed the keys to the movie without knowing anything to Star Wars despite what he has said. It's like someone saying they can drive a manual car and then destroys the car trying to drive manual.

[Riedquat]

A skilled writer can subvert expectations and it doesn't clash with the universe, it feels like it flows from whatever was established and going on in the universe and yet is still unexpected.

A bad writer does it anyway.

The bad writer equates change and difference with good.

[McAvoy]

A skilled writer can subvert expectations and it doesn't clash with the universe, it feels like it flows from whatever was established and going on in the universe and yet is still unexpected.

A bad writer does it anyway.

The bad writer equates change and difference with good.

It does makes me wonder what the hell Rian Johnson had planned for Episode 9 if he was directing.

He also went overboard with it the subverting expectations.

Even taking away that, you wouldn't get that far from seeing bad writing anyway.

The opening scene with the Dreadnought and the walking pace speed of the bombers. There is so much wrong with that scene. Bad humor, bad military tactics, wtf are they doing moments etc.

I could go on.

[Winter]

It does makes me wonder what the hell Rian Johnson had planned for Episode 9 if he was directing.

I don't think he was thinking that far ahead and by the time we get to the thrown room he just decided to end the Trilogy at act 2 of said Trilogy because it was more important to make a statement about nothing and go F it. At the end of She-Ra's 4th season on a cliff hanger that ended on a similar note to TLJ's 3d act because it wanted fans to come back for season 5. TLJ, on the other hand, included a 4th act that resolved every major plot point of the Trilogy leaving the next writer almost nothing to work with.

I haven't been able to find anything on WHY Johnson did this and I'm having trouble trying to think of why he would do this. Over with Dragon Age the series didn't have a plan for any games after Origins so DA2 had to set UP a story that was never really intended to be and wisely used what came before to make a foundation for future stories.

The Qunari, the Mage and Templar Conflict, the Mysteries of Elves history and expanding on the nature of the blight all helped to insure that DA had a future beyond chapter 1. Sure, DA2 is a VERY flawed game but it did make a solid foundation for more games to be made. TLJ seemed more interested in tearing down the foundation in what almost seems like a needless act of spite towards the series, fellow creators and the fans.

[McAvoy]

It does makes me wonder what the hell Rian Johnson had planned for Episode 9 if he was directing.

I don't think he was thinking that far ahead and by the time we get to the thrown room he just decided to end the Trilogy at act 2 of said Trilogy because it was more important to make a statement about nothing and go F it. At the end of She-Ra's 4th season on a cliff hanger that ended on a similar note to TLJ's 3d act because it wanted fans to come back for season 5. TLJ, on the other hand, included a 4th act that resolved every major plot point of the Trilogy leaving the next writer almost nothing to work with.

I haven't been able to find anything on WHY Johnson did this and I'm having trouble trying to think of why he would do this. Over with Dragon Age the series didn't have a plan for any games after Origins so DA2 had to set UP a story that was never really intended to be and wisely used what came before to make a foundation for future stories.

The Qunari, the Mage and Templar Conflict, the Mysteries of Elves history and expanding on the nature of the blight all helped to insure that DA had a future beyond chapter 1. Sure, DA2 is a VERY flawed game but it did make a solid foundation for more games to be made. TLJ seemed more interested in tearing down the foundation in what almost seems like a needless act of spite towards the series, fellow creators and the fans.

You are throwing alot of shows at me that I haven't seen.

That throne room scene is pretty bad in itself too. Like Rian Johnson decided to bring random people off of the streets and dress them up in red. Then fight the stars without any training and on top of that, do it only once.

Otherwise, Rian Johnson really sucks at action scenes and editing.

[Winter]

That throne room scene is pretty bad in itself too. Like Rian Johnson decided to bring random people off of the streets and dress them up in red. Then fight the stars without any training and on top of that, do it only once.

Otherwise, Rian Johnson really sucks at action scenes and editing.

I don't much care for the Throne Room Fight scene mainly because it's completely pointless and I do think fans over-blow how great it is... Then again it's by no means the worst fight scene ever. I mean, have you seen Resident Evil: Afterlife?


youtu.be/J58VPpPrmQU

I don't even think it's the worst lightsaber duel in Star Wars as I found Rey and Kylo's last duel in ROS to be far worse as it had all the worst elements of every duel from the series that somehow became combined in this Frankenstein of a fight scene that is begging to be killed in an act of mercy.

And while I may not agree with fans of the film I can always get where they're coming from.


youtu.be/HFglBgPpQUs

Though I still personally think TLJ's fight is dull, espcially when compared to something like Raya and the Last Dragon.


youtu.be/1zsHWKKV5rc


youtu.be/kelnSxUt3_Q

I honestly think these two fights are choreographed a LOT better than, well, every duel in TDST and both actually have a narrative purpose that advances both the plot and the characters. IMO, TLJ's throne room fight is just there to have an action scene that could be cut and you would lose nothing. Again, I respect those who enjoy it but for me it's just exists to have an action scene.

[clearspira]

Luke had to die to get Rey over.
And that is not a bad thing. Passing the torch is a staple trope of the genre.
But Rian and Kathleen didn't just decide to get Rey over. They decided to dismantle Luke into a bottom-feeder coward so we could have REY THE STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER STANDING VICTORIOUS.

[McAvoy]

Someone described the lightsaber fights of the Sequels as more of a duel with baseball bats.

The throne room fight makes sense if you don't dig too deep into it. The guards were probably given orders to kill anyone who kills or harms Snoke. As a final order.

[CharlesPhipps]

I dunno, if someone kills the President, the Secret Service should probably try to arrest them.