Death of a Hero: Luke Skywalker vs. Mara Hope

[TGLS]

Well, the first order is a bad guy state so they kill instead of capture /s

[Riedquat]

Someone described the lightsaber fights of the Sequels as more of a duel with baseball bats.

The throne room fight makes sense if you don't dig too deep into it. The guards were probably given orders to kill anyone who kills or harms Snoke. As a final order.

Have to admit that I liked the one in The Rise of Skywalker, which felt rather more like two human beings fighting, albeit human beings with powers that we don't have, but still with limits to their physical stamina.

[Paul Walker]

I think I may be jumping in with a thought on the wrong thread, but I think Rian Johnson handled Luke brilliantly (apart from the one blue milk shot).

Before you disagree... think about what The Force Awakens set up.

Luke had been missing. For a long, long time. It was shown where he was, standing around on an island.

If Luke had the force, either we'd have to deal with how he got stuck. We know Jedi can communicate over vast distances (that was shown in the films, and Luke did it too). And it would also make him look weak.
And if he wasn't stuck and was just *there* it makes him look uncaring or callous.

So how can you make him not have been seen in ages and not seem callous? Have him give up the Force. That needs a reason.

In Return of the Jedi we saw him lose his temper due to his fear about his sister. And while he didn't strike the blow on the Emperor, had Vader not stopped him that would have connected. Yoda said that once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. That little hint of dark meant he did activate his sabre to strike down Kylo. But he realised his mistake. And the consequences made him unwilling to risk that again.

As for the ending...

In Return of the Jedi, Luke won the battle by throwing down his lightsaber. The Jedi mantra is that they should never attack. So what's the one way that Luke doesn't regress as a Jedi? By having him save the Resistance despite never raising a weapon.

--

OK, now that you've seen my thoughts on it, I'm ready for my immolation

[McAvoy]

I think I may be jumping in with a thought on the wrong thread, but I think Rian Johnson handled Luke brilliantly (apart from the one blue milk shot).

Before you disagree... think about what The Force Awakens set up.

Luke had been missing. For a long, long time. It was shown where he was, standing around on an island.

If Luke had the force, either we'd have to deal with how he got stuck. We know Jedi can communicate over vast distances (that was shown in the films, and Luke did it too). And it would also make him look weak.
And if he wasn't stuck and was just *there* it makes him look uncaring or callous.

So how can you make him not have been seen in ages and not seem callous? Have him give up the Force. That needs a reason.

In Return of the Jedi we saw him lose his temper due to his fear about his sister. And while he didn't strike the blow on the Emperor, had Vader not stopped him that would have connected. Yoda said that once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. That little hint of dark meant he did activate his sabre to strike down Kylo. But he realised his mistake. And the consequences made him unwilling to risk that again.

As for the ending...

In Return of the Jedi, Luke won the battle by throwing down his lightsaber. The Jedi mantra is that they should never attack. So what's the one way that Luke doesn't regress as a Jedi? By having him save the Resistance despite never raising a weapon.

--

OK, now that you've seen my thoughts on it, I'm ready for my immolation

I have heard this argument before when it comes for the Pro Luke in the Sequel trilogy.

This only addresses small actions but not the overall theme. Luke was literally called A New Hope. He was the Return of the Jedi. He didn't kill his own father despite the man he was as Vader, anyone would find irredeemable. Yet he tried and did succeed because he felt it.

We have seen Jedi get angry. Obi Wan on Phantom Menace did. He was very aggressive in his single duel with Mual after his master was mortally wounded.

[clearspira]

I think I may be jumping in with a thought on the wrong thread, but I think Rian Johnson handled Luke brilliantly (apart from the one blue milk shot).

Before you disagree... think about what The Force Awakens set up.

Luke had been missing. For a long, long time. It was shown where he was, standing around on an island.

If Luke had the force, either we'd have to deal with how he got stuck. We know Jedi can communicate over vast distances (that was shown in the films, and Luke did it too). And it would also make him look weak.
And if he wasn't stuck and was just *there* it makes him look uncaring or callous.

So how can you make him not have been seen in ages and not seem callous? Have him give up the Force. That needs a reason.

In Return of the Jedi we saw him lose his temper due to his fear about his sister. And while he didn't strike the blow on the Emperor, had Vader not stopped him that would have connected. Yoda said that once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. That little hint of dark meant he did activate his sabre to strike down Kylo. But he realised his mistake. And the consequences made him unwilling to risk that again.

As for the ending...

In Return of the Jedi, Luke won the battle by throwing down his lightsaber. The Jedi mantra is that they should never attack. So what's the one way that Luke doesn't regress as a Jedi? By having him save the Resistance despite never raising a weapon.

--

OK, now that you've seen my thoughts on it, I'm ready for my immolation

I have heard this argument before when it comes for the Pro Luke in the Sequel trilogy.

This only addresses small actions but not the overall theme. Luke was literally called A New Hope. He was the Return of the Jedi. He didn't kill his own father despite the man he was as Vader, anyone would find irredeemable. Yet he tried and did succeed because he felt it.

We have seen Jedi get angry. Obi Wan on Phantom Menace did. He was very aggressive in his single duel with Mual after his master was mortally wounded.

''The Jedi mantra is that they should never attack''

Obi Wan in Attack of the Clones: ''This weapon is your life''

Sorry, maybe if we only had the OT. But the Prequels have invalidated this idea. Even Yoda ended up with a lightsaber.

[Makeshift Python]

''The Jedi mantra is that they should never attack''

Obi Wan in Attack of the Clones: ''This weapon is your life''

Sorry, maybe if we only had the OT. But the Prequels have invalidated this idea. Even Yoda ended up with a lightsaber.

Chronologically speaking the OT invalidated the idea of "this weapon is your life". There's Yoda, over 20 years after the events of the Clone Wars, trying to teach Luke to be a pacifist AFTER having survived the purge, because he saw how the Jedi lost their way by the prequels and tried to avert that by teaching Luke that "wars not make one great".

Luke also realized that, which is why he cut himself off from the Force because he was hoping to break what seemed like a cycle of events. However, he only ended up making the same mistake as his masters and didn't realize that mistake until Rey showed up to tell him how much worse things have gotten. That's partly why Yoda had to show up and bonk him on the head that FAILURE is as powerful a teacher, and that you need to learn from that to move forward, instead of dwelling on an island. Luke taught Yoda something on Degobah, and was returning the favor. Combine that with Rey calling him out, we get Luke using the power of his mind ("not this crude matter") to stop the First Order so that the surviving Resistance can have a fighting chance, all at the cost of his very life force.

The whole idea of having to face your failure is one of those things that got over the heads of many fans because they're too angry. Rian Johnson wasn't trying to "subvert expectations", he was putting the characters through the ringer in order for them to rise to the occasion. When you get upset over the fact that the tactics shown at the beginning with the bombers is bad, YES! That's the fucking point! Why do you think Leia was angry at Poe?

"There were heroes on that mission."
"Dead heroes."

Goddamn, it's such a shame Fisher passed away, because I missed the hell out of her in TROS.

[Winter]

The whole idea of having to face your failure is one of those things that got over the heads of many fans because they're too angry. Rian Johnson wasn't trying to "subvert expectations", he was putting the characters through the ringer in order for them to rise to the occasion. When you get upset over the fact that the tactics shown at the beginning with the bombers is bad, YES! That's the fucking point! Why do you think Leia was angry at Poe?

"There were heroes on that mission."
"Dead heroes."

Couple of things, I'm fine with the theme of failure I just don't think the film executes it very well. Yoda literally has to go straight up to the camera and spell the theme out for the audience. If you have such little faith in the audience to figure out the theme that's a bad sign. I can forgive in something like the Dark Knight because Nolan over explains EVERYTHING but it's done like a professor explaining a thesis to his students, he views the audience as equals and asks us questions on the subject and often allows us to come to our own conclusion yet sticking to his own opinions.

In TLJ Johnson makes a big deal about war profiteering, slavery, the concept of remaining neutral in a war and whether the Jedi should return or end. But it does so in a way that comes off, to me, as rather condescending. Yeah, war profiteering is bad, remaining neutral is not always a good thing and the Jedi have screwed up but the film makes it clear which side your suppose to be taking.

Here's a point that's always bugged me, why does DJ give a $#!t about what Finn thinks? Finn mentions how it's good the help the good guys and then DJ, without any prompting, makes a speech about how the Resistance and Empire are both equally bad and how the only way to live is to not pick a side. WTF does he care what his employer think about the war? He's a hacker for hire and yet he makes a big deal about when NO ONE was asking him about it.

In She-Ra Double Trouble reveals to Catra that they were the ones to betrayer her and before leaving they decided to tear into Catra and make her see that she has no one to blame but herself for everyone leaving her. Why do they do this? Because they're a sadist, they NEED an audience so they can show off how clever they are, they want to see Catra's will break so they can reveal in her reaction to show just how good they are. And because, on some twisted level, they came to care about Catra and wanted to help her get better, in their own sociopathic way.

This isn't guess work or told to us in the show, it's all in the text and subtext of the show so when the time comes for this scene it hits hard but feels real. And I don't get the same with DJ. I don't know anything about DJ other then he likes remaining neutral which is why he sides against both sides and that he was suppose to be Lando before Johnson changed it.

Yeah, DJ was suppose to be Lando who was going to betray the Resistance to save his own @$$ but that was changed because it was felt that it would be out of character after Lando's character development from the Original Trilogy. I don't know why that's suddenly an issue given all the $#!t they put the original Trio through but at least they didn't drag Lando down too.

And yes, I am including Leia in the characters that Disney mistreated because she's JUST as responsible for the death of the bombers as Poe is because she could have AND SHOULD HAVE called off the attack when sh realized this was a bad plan so why didn't she do it? There are only 3 possible answers and all of them make Leia look like a bad leader.

One: Leia just didn't think to call off the attack even though she knew it was a bad plan. So, either Leia thought there was a chance this could work and when it cost them the lives of several Rebel lives and all of their bombers she put the blame squarely on Poe even though she had the power to call off the attack.

Two: Leia did try to call off the attack off-screen but everyone ignored her orders and choose to follows Poe lead which suggest that no one sees her as a true authority and trusts Poe over her in which case it makes Leia look back because she commands no respect from the Resistance that SHE HELPED CREATE!!!

And Finally 3: This whole plan was presented to Leia, she rejected it but Poe and the Bomber Squad decided to do it anyway which has the same problem as #2 because it again suggest that no one really respects Leia even though she, again, helped create the Resistance.

I honestly don't know which is worst and in the end it all results in the suggests that Leia is a bad leader who has no control over an army that doesn't respect her.

And again, She-Ra handled this better as Angella has to deal with Glimmer who would often go against her advice and orders but Angella was able to get Glimmer under control AND it was clear that the Rebellion saw her as the leader and deferred to her orders because she's been at this longer then anyone else. And Glimmer's hotheadedness makes a LOT of sense as she's has a superiority/inferiority complex that makes her do... unbelievably stupid things which only gets worse when she has to take over the Rebellion after Angella is trapped in another dimension.

And again, this is done WITHOUT the show needing to point it out to the viewers. It's shown in the text and subtext so when we get to these points Angella doesn't need to look directly into the camera and explain why it to the viewer. The show trusts that we can put two and two together and realize how we got into this mess when $@!t goes sideways.

As always I respect your opinion and these are just my opinions and nothing more.

[Makeshift Python]

I dunno how long it's been since you saw TLJ, but Leia does order Poe on radio to retreat after he successfully destroyed the cannons that would have obliterated them, and he immediately disregards that order and has the bombers come in to destroy the ship. I'm assuming she can only directly communicate with the leader of the group and not anyone else, much like how we only saw Yavin HQ being able to communicate Red Leader during the Death Star attack in ANH, but they never try contacting Luke or any of the other remaining fighters because they can only just listen. That's why the bombers couldn't be called off by Leia.

The whole point of DJ was that he was the opposite of Rose. One is telling Finn that fighting for the cause is worth it, and the other is telling him it's easier to just leave it all behind and not become invested. Finn ultimately decides the cause is worth fighting for even in the face of failure, which is why he tells DJ "you're wrong" during their last exchange. That's further solidified with his proclamation of being "rebel scum".

I can't comment on She-Ra, because I never watched those cartoons.

[Winter]

I dunno how long it's been since you saw TLJ, but Leia does order Poe on radio to retreat after he successfully destroyed the cannons that would have obliterated them, and he immediately disregards that order and has the bombers come in to destroy the ship. I'm assuming she can only directly communicate with the leader of the group and not anyone else, much like how we only saw Yavin HQ being able to communicate Red Leader during the Death Star attack in ANH, but they never try contacting Luke or any of the other remaining fighters because they can only just listen. That's why the bombers couldn't be called off by Leia.

youtu.be/AA_D__HMuFw


youtu.be/KuKqcfO31is

While the squad leaders are the ones in the most constant communicating with the HQ we see the other pilots can, and ARE, communicating with the other rebel pilots. "Luke, you've switched off your targeting computer. What's wrong" "Nothing, I'm alright".

And in TLJ Leia can hear the communications and given how it sounds it's clearly over the radio not her hearing this through the Force. And if the Resistance doesn't have any means of communicating with anyone besides the Squad leaders then they are an even more incompetent Organization then I thought since being able to communicate with as many soldiers as possible is VITAL to coordinate attacks against the opposition.

The whole point of DJ was that he was the opposite of Rose. One is telling Finn that fighting for the cause is worth it, and the other is telling him it's easier to just leave it all behind and not become invested. Finn ultimately decides the cause is worth fighting for even in the face of failure, which is why he tells DJ "you're wrong" during their last exchange. That's further solidified with his proclamation of being "rebel scum".

I Get That what I don't get is why DJ gives a $#!t about what Finn thinks. Why does he go into this speech about how both the Rebels and First Order are equally bad (which is BS BTW as the Resistance haven't destroyed an entire solar system just to prove they're evil). I get why Rose cares, Finn isn't acting like how she wants him to and is more self-centered then Anakin ever was in Attack of the Clones and wants him to live up the version of him she made in her head. It's an awful reason but at least it's a REASON, DJ just suddenly speechifies Finn whom he just met because he's just there to be a mouth piece for the Director to get Finn to act a certain way.

Again, Double Trouble tearing into Catra makes sense, they're a sadist and in their own twisted way want to help Catra.


youtu.be/a8nPe1EBuEA

DJ is just a Hacker for Hire and gets all preachy about what Finn thinks because that's he's a prop that talks not a character with a motive beyond doing what the script tells him to do.

I can't comment on She-Ra, because I never watched those cartoons.

I can only recommend to watch the show and decide for yourself if it's as good as I'm making it out to be or if I'm full of $#!t. You make the call but this whole post is about comparing the death of a Star Wars character to a She-Ra character (who is named after Luke's wife from the EU in a series that is a reboot of a spin-off of a series that was intended to live off the success of Star Wars (the world is truly wonderfully weird like that sometimes )) so comparing the two on this post is kinda unavoidable. Mind you I'm mildly Obsessive Compulsive and love both Star Wars and She-Ra so it's unavoidable no matter what but still. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[McAvoy]

The whole beginning scene of TLJ really doesn't make any sense. And some of it really could be fixed with a line or two of dialogue.

First off, what were the other First Order ships doing during this? It's not like Resistance fleet was a significant fleet. That Dreadnought is such a significant threat? Yet the fleet that later chases them seems to be fully capable of destroying the Resistance fleet if gone one on one.

Also what is to say the First Order don't have more of them? They can certainly build them though that takes time. It's not like that ship was massively big.

This could have all been talked about during and after the battle from Leia or Holdo. Instead of Holdo going on the attack from the get go like she did on Poe.

'We had to destroy that ship!'

'They have more than one Poe. We just got pushed off of our base, we need to regroup and not waste any more lives on pointless attacks'.

General Hux is an idiot. That whole humor scene between him and Poe was cringey. It was dumb humor but also made Hux look like an idiot. You are not supposed to make the bad guys look like idiots.

Nevermind the time skip or apparently lack of one from TFA and TLJ. Or the whole situation between the Fiest Order and the New Republic or the Resistance's relationship in all of this.

Or the dumbass slow moving bombers.