Have Lightsaber Duels Dropped in Quality?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

And then we have the TDST duels and I'm going to be honest I felt these are rather weak. I felt the choreography is weak with the characters treating the Lightsabers more like bats then swords and, IMO, with the exception of Rey and Finn's fight fight with Kylo none of the duels have any reason to exist other then to have an action scene. The duels in The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker serve no real purpose and could be cut as they have no plot relevance and even less character relevance. I know that many feel that the duel in TLJ is one of the series bests but I'm sorry, I don't see it as it has no impact on anything and the duel in ROS is even worse because of how the climax of said duel is rendered pointless by the film not killing off Kylo and Ben being completely irrelevant in the climax thus making the duel just a flashy set piece with some of the series weakest choreography.

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[Nealithi]

Y'all are going to make me take this more seriously. I think limiting this discussion to duels is a disservice. And what I mean by that is we need to look into the why of the saber fights. The ones that happen for there to be one because 'Star Wars' are going to be bad.
What was a great lightsaber battle to me. Jabba's skiff and sail barge. Luke is working to protect and free all his friends at once. He is using cunning and skill. And it was still a close fight. And it had a purpose. The hero can't abandon his friends. So they had to rescue Han.

The scenes of Qui Gon and Obi Wan fighting through the Trade Federation ship. Showing why people rightly feared two jedi loose on the ship. Thus they had weight. More weight than the battle with Maul versus Qui Gon and Obi Wan at the end of the movie. Because as others noted. There was little purpose to it other than to show better choreography. Maul should have been after Amidala. And Qui Gon and Obi Wan fighting to keep him away. But that diminishes her getting the drop on the Vice Roy.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think the light saber scenes are fine in terms of choreography, and it's okay on the basis that they depart from an action scene. But I would like some action scenes where they the action follows their involvement.

[Jonathan101]

I think the Duel of the Fates fight is typically placed higher on people's lists due to it being the best part of the film and the music itself.

It does feel somewhat pointless. There wasnt really a fight for the fate of something. Anakin? No mention that was the goal of Maul. Naboo? Maul wasn't there for that planet. Maul was there pretty much to kill Jedi. Not much else in his motivations.

It's later on sort of implied that it was to get rid of Qui-Gon Jinn since it was felt he was the only one that could train Anakin the most effectively.

I think the "Duel of the Fates" refers more to this being the first real clash between the Jedi and the Sith in a millenia, and obviously in the long term the galaxy is at stake even if these particular combatants are more agents than players.

Of course, "Duel of the Fates" is also just the name of the song that is associated with the battle, so it might be reading too much into a name John Williams just thought sounded cool for all we know.

You could take the throne room fight out of TLJ and it wouldn't really change much, but if Maul wasn't there then the Jedi would make the battle for the palace a cakewalk, while if the Jedi weren't there then Amidala would have been captured or killed, and if Maul killed both Jedi then Amidala then Anakin might have become irredeemable (assuming Maul didn't kill him too), so I wouldn't say it was pointless- it's just the ramifications were less obvious and more subtle.

[Winter]

You could take the throne room fight out of TLJ and it wouldn't really change much, but if Maul wasn't there then the Jedi would make the battle for the palace a cakewalk, while if the Jedi weren't there then Amidala would have been captured or killed, and if Maul killed both Jedi then Amidala then Anakin might have become irredeemable (assuming Maul didn't kill him too), so I wouldn't say it was pointless- it's just the ramifications were less obvious and more subtle.

Exactly, thank you. The duel in the throne room has no plot or character relevance, anything that IS relevant to either is done before the duel (the death of Snoke) and after the duel (Rey and Kylo Ren's conversation). And the latter is actually less significant then the former since the revelations of that scene for Rey's character and disregarded and ignored throughout the rest of the series.

[Jonathan101]

You could take the throne room fight out of TLJ and it wouldn't really change much, but if Maul wasn't there then the Jedi would make the battle for the palace a cakewalk, while if the Jedi weren't there then Amidala would have been captured or killed, and if Maul killed both Jedi then Amidala then Anakin might have become irredeemable (assuming Maul didn't kill him too), so I wouldn't say it was pointless- it's just the ramifications were less obvious and more subtle.

Exactly, thank you. The duel in the throne room has no plot or character relevance, anything that IS relevant to either is done before the duel (the death of Snoke) and after the duel (Rey and Kylo Ren's conversation). And the latter is actually less significant then the former since the revelations of that scene for Rey's character and disregarded and ignored throughout the rest of the series.

Pretty much the only reason it had to happen is because Snoke didn't tell his guards to leave like Palpatine did, since they were doing RotJ but "subverting expectations". Otherwise it's just an excuse for an action scene and to bait us into thinking that Kylo was good for a couple of minutes (unless you realised that with Snoke dead, Kylo is the obvious next main villain).

[Winter]

You could take the throne room fight out of TLJ and it wouldn't really change much, but if Maul wasn't there then the Jedi would make the battle for the palace a cakewalk, while if the Jedi weren't there then Amidala would have been captured or killed, and if Maul killed both Jedi then Amidala then Anakin might have become irredeemable (assuming Maul didn't kill him too), so I wouldn't say it was pointless- it's just the ramifications were less obvious and more subtle.

Exactly, thank you. The duel in the throne room has no plot or character relevance, anything that IS relevant to either is done before the duel (the death of Snoke) and after the duel (Rey and Kylo Ren's conversation). And the latter is actually less significant then the former since the revelations of that scene for Rey's character and disregarded and ignored throughout the rest of the series.

Pretty much the only reason it had to happen is because Snoke didn't tell his guards to leave like Palpatine did, since they were doing RotJ but "subverting expectations". Otherwise it's just an excuse for an action scene and to bait us into thinking that Kylo was good for a couple of minutes (unless you realised that with Snoke dead, Kylo is the obvious next main villain).

Again, I feel this sort of thing was handled so much better in She-Ra. At the end of Season 4 Catra and Hordak have a fight as a result of Double Trouble telling Hordak that Catra betrayed Entrapta and sent her to beast island. This fight has been building up over the course of the season and it helps to highlight just how far both villains have fallen as they are now fighting each other and reenforces the theme of Divided We Fall as both the heroes and villains are now destroying their own empires as a result of infighting.

This fight is the breaking point of the fragile alliance between both villains and therefore is important to both characters and the overall plot. But TLJ's throne room fight is two main characters vs. several red shirts who have no character who are going to die. This is why I don't see this as a subverting expectations scene as no expectations are being subverted during the fight. What would have subverted expectations if there was no fight at all.

Imagine, after Kylo killed Snoke Rey smiles up at him and then goes over to the monitor and sees the rebels are still being shot down and the scene goes on just like it did in the film proper. You have the shock of Kylo killing Snoke, then a sense of satisfaction, then realization what this really means which returns us back to the shock. There is no need for this fight, it serves no purpose which means it's not only action for the sake of action it's also PADDING!!!

And the film was already padded to hell and back given how much of it was pointless by design. Luke's three lessons? Pointless! Casino Planet? Pointless! Alliance with DJ and him turning on the Rebels? Pointless! The Throne Room Fight?!?! POINTLESS!!!

In a story you must do one of two things, advance the plot or advance the characters. If you don't do one you NEED to do the other. The Indiana Jones Films make a point that Indy is a pointless character in3 of his four movies and many scenes don't advance the plot in anyway shape or form like the plane fight in Raiders of the Lost Ark. BUT it does develop or reveal more about Indy's character throughout the series. The plane fight shows Indy's shortsightedness in him not realizing that the plane had nothing to do with the ark being moved and also shows his determination to retrieve the ark.

Thus that scene isn't action for the sake of action which results in it being padding but instead gives us more insight to Indy's character which results in the film not wasting anyone's time.

[McAvoy]

I think the Duel of the Fates fight is typically placed higher on people's lists due to it being the best part of the film and the music itself.

It does feel somewhat pointless. There wasnt really a fight for the fate of something. Anakin? No mention that was the goal of Maul. Naboo? Maul wasn't there for that planet. Maul was there pretty much to kill Jedi. Not much else in his motivations.

It's later on sort of implied that it was to get rid of Qui-Gon Jinn since it was felt he was the only one that could train Anakin the most effectively.

I think the "Duel of the Fates" refers more to this being the first real clash between the Jedi and the Sith in a millenia, and obviously in the long term the galaxy is at stake even if these particular combatants are more agents than players.

Of course, "Duel of the Fates" is also just the name of the song that is associated with the battle, so it might be reading too much into a name John Williams just thought sounded cool for all we know.

You could take the throne room fight out of TLJ and it wouldn't really change much, but if Maul wasn't there then the Jedi would make the battle for the palace a cakewalk, while if the Jedi weren't there then Amidala would have been captured or killed, and if Maul killed both Jedi then Amidala then Anakin might have become irredeemable (assuming Maul didn't kill him too), so I wouldn't say it was pointless- it's just the ramifications were less obvious and more subtle.

The name of last fight with Maul is just called that due to the song. I might be wrong. Maybe it was called that first and Williams named the song after the fight.

You are right. Maul was there pretty much to prevent the Jedi from wrecking the whole Battle for Naboo. And that isn't a in universe thing but more of a story telling thing.

I agree that Maul should have been after someone, Anakin or Amidala. The leader or a potentially super powerful Force user.

Also I don't think there was even a true lightsaber battle in the Last Jedi. I mean two lightsaber clashing with each other type of fight.

[Winter]

Also I don't think there was even a true lightsaber battle in the Last Jedi. I mean two lightsaber clashing with each other type of fight.

This is something that's bugged me what was up with those weapons the Red Shirts were using. For me they don't really look or sound like a Star Wars weapon but rather from another series altogether. I could see them being used in, say, ThunderCats or even another Sci-Fi/Fantasy series but in Star Wars they stick out like a sore thumb.

I mean, I can barely see the force-field that's being used to make it combat the Lightsaber. Honestly these really should have just been lightsabers and it would have worked a LOT better. Case in point.


youtu.be/Jkr9iGBdyQo

[Jonathan101]

I honestly believe that all of the pointless lightsaber duels in The Rise of Skywalker were to make up for the lack of duels in the previous two movies.