Kai Winn vs. Shaow Weaver: How to Write a Hateful Character

[Winter]

I NEVER liked it when Kai Winn showed up in Deep Space 9. Every episode she was in was hindered by her presents, even if the episode was good if she was in it I just couldn't enjoy it as much as I normally would and for 2 reasons. I knew she would be insufferable and that she would get never get punished for her crimes or even get more power. She's like a villain from an 80's cartoon only without the charm or menace that made those characters so endearing. She's not fun to watch, she's not the least intimidating and has very little depth and what little there is is tossed aside soon after it's learned because the writers didn't like writing her as a good guy.

In the past I've pointed to She-Ra and the Princesses of Power to how I felt the Disney Star Wars Sequel Trilogy could have been done better, IMO, so to shack things up I'm going to be comparing She-Ra to another show I love, in this case DS9.

I HATE Shadow Weaver. She embodies everything that I stand against, selfishness without thought, cruelty, lack of planning, taking accomplishments of others and abuse. She is an awful mentor and an even worse parent who is only around because she's just useful enough to stay in the game. And yet, I admit I always looked forward to seeing her because despite of, or maybe even because of these traits, she was a well rounded and engaging character.

She was terrible person who F#ke9 up Catra and Adora that it almost led to the whole galaxies destruction and yet, she was fun to watch. She made jokes that I found genuinely funny, she was evil and manipulative skilled enough to stay in the game. Her ego was a sight to behold as she was clearly out of her depth when compared to her surrogate daughters or to the sidekicks. She's a horrible parent but did clearly have some love for her "children" which made it hard to figure out when she was being sincere and when it was just more of her BS. It helped that she often got her comeuppance more often then not yet was still dangerous enough to pose a serious threat and knew Catra and Adora well enough to manipulate them to doing what she wanted.

One of my issues with Winn is she got away with so much when, realistically, she would have lost most of her power when it was made clear that even Sisko, who's basically the Bajor version of Jesus, was against her and made his feelings as clear as possible. And yet the worst Winn gets is that she has to make a few compromises when she almost starts a CIVIL WAR OVER SOME GARDENING SUPPLIES!!! And yet she somehow remained in power despite everyone in power knowing she was someone who couldn't be trusted, had no usefulness and was in fact often more of a threat then the ENEMIES of the Bajors.

As I said Shadow Weaver often proved herself to be just useful enough to stay in the game even when everyone around her proved to be more useful and powerful then she could ever hope to be. She knew just enough about the Black Garnet to stay in Hordak's favor and when she switched sides she knew just enough about the Hordes plans to stay in Glimmer's favor and she did offer up good advice or what appeared to be good advice and knew enough to stay out of everyone's way or was a skilled enough manipulator to make even her daughters keep her around even when they knew she was playing them.

And finally, and spoiler warning from here on out, there's their deaths. When Winn FINALLY died I felt nothing because she had spent all her time trying screwing everyone over until literal her last moments and even her attempt to help came off as her trying to cover her own @$$ then trying to actually help. Her death gave me no satisfaction because it all happened so fast and I felt no pity for her even though her last act was to try and help save the universe.

By contrast, after over a year, I still feel conflicted about Shadow Weaver's death. I do think she did what she did because she wanted to protect her children but I also know that she also did it to make herself seem like a hero in the belief that she would HAVE to be seen as a hero. Her last words "You're Welcome" fit her so perfectly because they show the depth of her compassion and love and the high of her ego.

Winn's last words, on the other hand, is just her telling Sisko to destroy a book while calling him the Emissary which I think was meant to be seen as her showing that she now truly believed in Sisko and the Prophets... except she ALWAYS called him that and did have faith and didn't saying Emissary any differently so this line is her just telling him to destroy the bosses one weak point.

I hate both these characters but one I hate for reasons the writers likely didn't intend and the other I hate for the exact reasons that were intended and STILL made the character engaging. While I always hated Shadow Weaver I also always strangely looked forward to more of her scenes and while I will likely feel conflicted by her death I was satisfied with how her arc was resolved.

Kai Winn is a character I could never stand because she got away with to much and offered little to nothing of value to either side in the war. Shadow Weaver was often just useful enough to stay relevant but would never stay ahead of everyone for long and it was always so satisfying to see her get her comeuppance.


youtu.be/YCP2QQH4uuQ

If you're going to make a character we hate make them entertaining or, at the very least, engaging. Don't make them a chore to get through that makes the audience roles their eyes and grown whenever they show up, make them someone we hate but enjoy to see. Shadow Weaver is a complex character with many layers to her, Winn is an annoying mouth piece who is, for me, as bad as Neelix if not worse. At least Neelix was SOMEWHAT useful in SOME episodes so there was reason for Janeway to keep him around, Winn was so useless that I'm amazed she wasn't assassinated in her first year as Kai.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I see the sense in most of what you say, but I'd argue Shadow Weaver's death was devoid of compassion. It was the ultimate slap-in-the-face to her victims. I also would say she might have had compassion for Adora, or at least something that can pass for compassion in a poor light, but she had none for Catra.

[Winter]

I see the sense in most of what you say, but I'd argue Shadow Weaver's death was devoid of compassion. It was the ultimate slap-in-the-face to her victims. I also would say she might have had compassion for Adora, or at least something that can pass for compassion in a poor light, but she had none for Catra.

I don't fully agree on her having no compassion for Catra as I do think it was there. It's just that she's a horrible person that it's kinda hard to tell. I think she did love both of them but her own desire for power overrode that love in preference for her own wants. I do agree that her saving Catra and Adora at the end was likely mostly self-serving (this IS Shadow Weaver we're talking about here) but I think she did care about them. Her comments that she was proud of Catra and that this was just the beginning for her (Catra) could be partly sincere... Or it could be more BS given her last words.

Regardless while I will likely always have mixed feelings about Shadow Weaver's death (and for once I think that's a good thing) I was satisfied with how her arc concluded because it fit her so perfectly.

At the very least can we agree that Winn was completely insufferable and lacked the depth, complexity and charm of other Trek Villains. Even in his first appearance Khan had more layers and charisma then Winn did throughout DS9.

[Draco Dracul]

One thing I find fascinating about Shadow Weaver is that she both genuinely changes sides without any intent to double cross Angela (or later Glimmer), but she never becomes a better person.

[Winter]

One thing I find fascinating about Shadow Weaver is that she both genuinely changes sides without any intent to double cross Angela (or later Glimmer), but she never becomes a better person.

Which again is a strike against Winn. Winn did, for a while, switch sides and it was the intent of the writers to make her seem like a more complex person but her reasons for joying and later leaving the heroes was rather contrived and at no point did she ever become tolerable or interesting IMO. Shadow Weaver's reasons for defecting both the Horde and later to the rebellion was for purely selfish reasons which perfectly fit her character.

And while she likely never had any intent to double cross Angella or Glimmer in the end she would do so if she thought she could get away with it and if it benefited her. And what's great is that everyone has figured this out and by the end of the series NO ONE is willing to give her the benefit of the doubt because she has betrayed everyone to often to let anyone trust her.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Shadow Weaver has also been consistent in her motivations. Winn doesn't seem consistent to me in that respect. Sometimes she's a zealot driven by her faith, sometimes she's machiovellan schemer putting on a pretense of piety only lusting for power. This makes it impossible to take her shining, more nuanced moments at face value. If she was only ever pretending to believe, then her "while you rebels had your weapons, we only had our faith" comment on the occupation is empty. If they did want to imbue her with some redemptive value or moral greyness, the chance to do that was when she asks Kira about her crisis of faith, and Kira advises her to give up the power of her religious authority.

This might be a seperate discussion, but I find Winn irritating in precisely the same way I find Bester on Babylon 5 irritating.

[McAvoy]

Kai Winn is annoying and I think she is written that way. Maybe not at first, but definitely the more screen time she had.

I had a old theory that she was supposed to be bad guy/gal to Sisko when it came to the Prophets. But Dukat and Marc Alimo were so good, they made him the big baddy for Sisko when it came to the Prophets.

Yeah she has redeemable points like her past, perhaps before shd got power hungry.

I think that was always the point of her. That she was irredeemable and power hungry. Jealous, manipulative, and so on.

[Draco Dracul]

Shadow Weaver has also been consistent in her motivations. Winn doesn't seem consistent to me in that respect. Sometimes she's a zealot driven by her faith, sometimes she's machiovellan schemer putting on a pretense of piety only lusting for power. This makes it impossible to take her shining, more nuanced moments at face value. If she was only ever pretending to believe, then her "while you rebels had your weapons, we only had our faith" comment on the occupation is empty. If they did want to imbue her with some redemptive value or moral greyness, the chance to do that was when she asks Kira about her crisis of faith, and Kira advises her to give up the power of her religious authority.

This might be a seperate discussion, but I find Winn irritating in precisely the same way I find Bester on Babylon 5 irritating.

I really feel like they should have been more consistent with her being someone whose faith was at best secondary to the power her position gave her and at worse a complete facade and given her Dukat's post Waltz role. Effective having her be a priest that made a deal with the devil for power, both in a literal sense and as a metaphor for the countless religious leaders who have done terrible things for money and power.

[CharlesPhipps]

I hope for a movie where Catra massacres everyone and proves her as the ULTIMATE EVIL!



Edit:

Kai Winn is a perfectly understandable person to me because I grew up in the Bible Belt and there were plenty of people for who religion is purely performative. They are fanatical about hating on the gays or whatever but have absolutely no impact on their own lives ("the only justified abortion is my abortion"). It's also a source of political power and prestige that they love.

The problem with Kai Winn or FOR HER as depending on your way of handling it, is the fact Jesus showed up and started pointing out all the bullshit in her philosophy. Kai Winn can never be the Big Dog on Bajor with religion as long as the cosmopolitan Federation is above it and doubly so if GOD HIMSELF AND HIS ANGELS endorses it.

Hence her incredible frustration with Sisko who not only weakens her power base of fanatical loyalists but also cannot be bribed into going along with her.

[McAvoy]

Isn't that pretty much the theme of Winn though? She had power over her followers even it was smaller sect and I guess more fundamentalist. But she had power and I have no doubt with Sisko and the Wormhole, she probably would tried to manipulate herself to the top.