FBI Uncovered Russian Bribery Plot

[Karha of Honor]

In what way is Russian foreign policy better? In reality, not in anti-establishment conspiracy theorist land, where any crime can be excused as long as its against whatever the United States is doing.

Imperialist military actions? Russia's got that covered.

Interference in other countries' internal politics? Oh hell yes.

Props up despotic regimes? Absolutely.

Corrupt corporate oligarchs influencing the government? The Koch brothers probably dream of the kind of corruption Russia has. I mean, its not exactly a secret that in Russia, the lines between big business, the state, and the Mafia are very blurry.

The play the same game as America at its worst- if anything, they play it even more ruthlessly. They just haven't played it as effectively until the last couple of years.

Edit: None of that excuses any American misconduct, of course. But simply vilifying America's foreign policy is over-simplistic (there are many aspects to American foreign policy, some positive and some negative), and in any case, my point is that it does nobody any good if a weakening of American foreign policy occurs for the benefit of Russia. Which is what is going on with Trump.

If it's not a monopoly market everyone behaves better toward smaller states opposed to what it is now.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh for Christ's sake. You're seriously going to try to apply "the magic free market solves everything" to foreign policy?

Reality to conservatives: not everything is based on capitalist principles.

You think two powerful nations are fucking you over for their self-interest is better than one? Because we tried that- it was called the Cold War, and it involved a whole bunch of brutal dictators being propped up, and bloody proxy wars, being waged by both sides. On top of nearly leading to the end of human civilization on multiple occasions.

But at least you are being honest about the fact that you support your country's enemies. Despite said enemies being brutal dictators and corrupt mobsters.

[Antiboyscout]

Tony Podesta, brother of John Podesta, under investigation by Mueller.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mu ... ta-n812776

Really I think this will amount to nothing just like the rest of the Mueller investigation.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, again trying to deflect the focus onto "Democrats are the REAL guilty ones" via guilt by association, then "but it doesn't really matter, because the investigation's not real."

You can't even keep your Russia/Trump apologism consistent.

[Karha of Honor]

Oh for Christ's sake. You're seriously going to try to apply "the magic free market solves everything" to foreign policy?

Reality to conservatives: not everything is based on capitalist principles.

You think two powerful nations are fucking you over for their self-interest is better than one? Because we tried that- it was called the Cold War, and it involved a whole bunch of brutal dictators being propped up, and bloody proxy wars, being waged by both sides. On top of nearly leading to the end of human civilization on multiple occasions.

But at least you are being honest about the fact that you support your country's enemies. Despite said enemies being brutal dictators and corrupt mobsters.

Support? Seeing a more multipolar world as positive is not support for dictators. I am more like a police chief in fucked up place trying to pick the least worst option. I think fuckery is minimal compared to most of history and the world is fairly chill. More multipolarity won't lead to massive wars in this case.

Are you sure that money was not being sent to fucked up places under Obama or even right now? To fucked up people? What makes you sure the US was not proxy warring the fuck out of the world under Obama?

[Antiboyscout]

So, again trying to deflect the focus onto "Democrats are the REAL guilty ones" via guilt by association, then "but it doesn't really matter, because the investigation's not real."

You can't even keep your Russia/Trump apologism consistent.

The Uranium scandal and the Muller investigation are two separate things. I have always held that the Muller investigation will lead to nothing. I link the story because it is related.

You are the one that asserts Muller is honest and the investigation will lead to something.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh for Christ's sake. You're seriously going to try to apply "the magic free market solves everything" to foreign policy?

Reality to conservatives: not everything is based on capitalist principles.

You think two powerful nations are fucking you over for their self-interest is better than one? Because we tried that- it was called the Cold War, and it involved a whole bunch of brutal dictators being propped up, and bloody proxy wars, being waged by both sides. On top of nearly leading to the end of human civilization on multiple occasions.

But at least you are being honest about the fact that you support your country's enemies. Despite said enemies being brutal dictators and corrupt mobsters.

Support? Seeing a more multipolar world as positive is not support for dictators. I am more like a police chief in fucked up place trying to pick the least worst option.

Well, actually, you do, by your own admission, support greater power and influence for Vladimir Putin's Russia- hence, support for dictators.

And a more multipolar world is what we had back about a hundred years ago. The world that gave us World War One and World War II.

That kind of world does not necessarily lead to peace- in fact there's a fair amount of historical evidence to suggest the opposite.

In any case, a stronger Russia by itself doesn't mean a multipolar world- it means a bi-polar world, and as I said, we've seen how that works, during the Cold War.

I think fuckery is minimal compared to most of history and the world is fairly chill. More multipolarity won't lead to massive wars in this case.

Because... you say so?

The world may be comparatively well-off right now, but it seems to be getting steadily worse. Proxy wars aplenty, the world's largest refugee crisis (or at least the largest since WWII- I can't recall if we've passed that threshold yet), and its only going to get worse once climate change and loss of jobs to automation really hit. We will likely see more countries turn towards authoritarianism and extremist nationalism again, and I am not at all convinced that a more multipolar world will diffuse, as opposed to intensify, the resulting conflicts.

Are you sure that money was not being sent to fucked up places under Obama or even right now? To fucked up people? What makes you sure the US was not proxy warring the fuck out of the world under Obama?

This is a blatant straw man.

I never said that the US didn't do those things. I said that Russia was just as bad or worse, and that therefore the situation would not be improved by increasing Russia's power at the expense of America's.

But this is an entirely predictable response, because its the one that Putin apologists always use.

Criticize Putin? Or one of his proxy dictators?

"But America is just as bad, therefore (implicitly) its okay when Russia/Assad/etc. does it, even though its evil when America does it!"

It doesn't matter what you say, or how valid the criticisms may be- this is always the response. Its faction-based morality- if its against America (particularly American foreign policy), it is treated as justifiable, simply on that basis. Deflect the argument back into an attack on America/"the West" (which has the additional benefit of discrediting your opponent by painting them as a hypocrite who defends American misdeeds, even if they did nothing of the sort). Its this same line, this same con, in various forms, over and over again. So of course you try to flip my argument around by attacking America again and (falsely) depicting me as an apologist for American imperialism.

This is literally just a small-scale version of the Kremlin's own propaganda.

And because we live in a world where knee-jerk cynicism is equated with intelligence and sophistication, where there is deep hostility towards anything perceived as the "establishment", and where automatically proclaiming that "both sides are just as bad" is seen as fair rather than mindless (even when it is really being used as a pretext to excuse the crimes of the worse side), it works. Millions of people are deceived by this narrative, and democracy pays the price.

I am inclined to think that either you are knowingly engaging in this manipulation, or you are one of those millions who has been deceived by it. I'm honestly not certain which.

[Karha of Honor]

Oh for Christ's sake. You're seriously going to try to apply "the magic free market solves everything" to foreign policy?

Reality to conservatives: not everything is based on capitalist principles.

You think two powerful nations are fucking you over for their self-interest is better than one? Because we tried that- it was called the Cold War, and it involved a whole bunch of brutal dictators being propped up, and bloody proxy wars, being waged by both sides. On top of nearly leading to the end of human civilization on multiple occasions.

But at least you are being honest about the fact that you support your country's enemies. Despite said enemies being brutal dictators and corrupt mobsters.

Support? Seeing a more multipolar world as positive is not support for dictators. I am more like a police chief in fucked up place trying to pick the least worst option.

Well, actually, you do, by your own admission, support greater power and influence for Vladimir Putin's Russia- hence, support for dictators.

And a more multipolar world is what we had back about a hundred years ago. The world that gave us World War One and World War II.

That kind of world does not necessarily lead to peace- in fact there's a fair amount of historical evidence to suggest the opposite.

In any case, a stronger Russia by itself doesn't mean a multipolar world- it means a bi-polar world, and as I said, we've seen how that works, during the Cold War.

I think fuckery is minimal compared to most of history and the world is fairly chill. More multipolarity won't lead to massive wars in this case.

Because... you say so?

The world may be comparatively well-off right now, but it seems to be getting steadily worse. Proxy wars aplenty, the world's largest refugee crisis (or at least the largest since WWII- I can't recall if we've passed that threshold yet), and its only going to get worse once climate change and loss of jobs to automation really hit. We will likely see more countries turn towards authoritarianism and extremist nationalism again, and I am not at all convinced that a more multipolar world will diffuse, as opposed to intensify, the resulting conflicts.

Are you sure that money was not being sent to fucked up places under Obama or even right now? To fucked up people? What makes you sure the US was not proxy warring the fuck out of the world under Obama?

This is a blatant straw man.

I never said that the US didn't do those things. I said that Russia was just as bad or worse, and that therefore the situation would not be improved by increasing Russia's power at the expense of America's.

But this is an entirely predictable response, because its the one that Putin apologists always use.

Criticize Putin? Or one of his proxy dictators?

"But America is just as bad, therefore (implicitly) its okay when Russia/Assad/etc. does it, even though its evil when America does it!"

It doesn't matter what you say, or how valid the criticisms may be- this is always the response. Its faction-based morality- if its against America (particularly American foreign policy), it is treated as justifiable, simply on that basis. Deflect the argument back into an attack on America/"the West" (which has the additional benefit of discrediting your opponent by painting them as a hypocrite who defends American misdeeds, even if they did nothing of the sort). Its this same line, this same con, in various forms, over and over again. So of course you try to flip my argument around by attacking America again and (falsely) depicting me as an apologist for American imperialism.

This is literally just a small-scale version of the Kremlin's own propaganda.

And because we live in a world where knee-jerk cynicism is equated with intelligence and sophistication, where there is deep hostility towards anything perceived as the "establishment", and where automatically proclaiming that "both sides are just as bad" is seen as fair rather than mindless (even when it is really being used as a pretext to excuse the crimes of the worse side), it works. Millions of people are deceived by this narrative, and democracy pays the price.

I am inclined to think that either you are knowingly engaging in this manipulation, or you are one of those millions who has been deceived by it. I'm honestly not certain which.

Why is it a guarantee that more dictators will rise if Russia has more influence?

Everything was different a 100 years ago, no instant communication, lower living standards, people much more rarely questioned the idea of going to war...

Historical evidence from a way different world...

I doubt Russia is such a giant power that it would be bipolar


That's my bet, we can only speculate...

If i could speak Russian it would be easier for me to criticize Putin. All i can look at is his sane Foreign Policy record...

My critique is not an attack on America, it would help it live up to it's ideas.


There is 0 reason for an establishemnt to exist. We could rotate these fuckers. Plenty of talented people in the world....


intelligence is is intelligence regardless of where it comes from...

Billions were decieved by the insider's narrative, turned into a disaster...

I could not care less what do you think of my motivation. I know what it is and it's nothing dark.

[The Romulan Republic]

So, breaking news is that the first charges in the Mueller investigation are about to drop (who is being charged won't be announced until said person has been notified).

That's a lot of "nothing", isn't it?

FYI, my money is on Manafort, if its one of the big names getting charged. Or possibly Mike Flynn.

Then we get to see if the Orange One pardons them, or if they incriminate anyone else via plea deal.

[TGLS]

Well it's not nothing, and it's not something. It's the echo of something. Given that getting indictments is apparently something that is easy, then I don't expect it to be a big something unless there are many indictments, a big target, or Trump reacts stupidly.