Should RPG's Include Non-Binary Options? Part 2 KOTOR Remake

[Draco Dracul]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

Singular They is so old that the first recorded use of it in English was spelled þei because þ had yet to be replaced by th. It not only is so old that it predates modern English, but it was carried over into modern English by William Shakespeare.

It's 2021, they should include a nonbinary option for your character, the ability to select gender of your character independently of your avatar, and gay romance options.

[Thebestoftherest]

It is a universe, with rpbot, cyborgs, ape people, fosh people, weird people with super long arms that they use for legs, fly people, so I don't see how non-binary people wouldn't fit in.

[Lazerlike42]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

Singular They is so old that the first recorded use of it in English was spelled þei because þ had yet to be replaced by th. It not only is so old that it predates modern English, but it was carried over into modern English by William Shakespeare.

It's 2021, they should include a nonbinary option for your character, the ability to select gender of your character independently of your avatar, and gay romance options.

I think that just because something has existed in grammar, it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

For example, English has always, as far as I know, lacked the 2nd person plural that many, many other languages have. As I see it, this is a genuine weakness of the language. In some parts of the US, people use the informal "y'all" for this purpose, and even though we sort of joke about it, I actually think "y'all" is incredibly useful and helps fill a need in our language. As a born and bred northerner, I use this as a regular part of my language, and as a high school teacher sometime early in the year I usually explain to my students that I use this term seriously, compare it to the second person plural in French or Spanish (with which as high school students they're usually familiar) and explain why it's useful. I have to do that otherwise they think I'm trying to goof off and make a joke whenever I actually use the word.

None of this has anything to do with what one thinks of being non-binary. Language exists at the service of communicating about reality. If there are non-binary people in the world, language should be able to adequately talk about them, but that doesn't mean we should make - or reinforce already existing - ambiguities in our language to account for it. At one point "computer" was not a word. Then we realized we needed a word to describe certain things, so, building on other words, we created this one. The language became more precise, not less. That should always be the goal.

[TGLS]

For example, English has always, as far as I know, lacked the 2nd person plural that many, many other languages have.

Not quite; English doesn't lack the 2nd person plural, no, it lacks the 2nd person singular. Let's look at French for a moment. They have two words for the 2nd person case: "Tu" which is singular case, and "Vous" which is plural case. So "You"="Tu" and "Y'all"="Vous", right? Wrong. There's one thing I left out about "Vous"; "Vous" is used when you are referring to people in a formal sense as well as to refer to a group of people. The situation was actually the reverse to what was supposed earlier: "You"="Vous" and "Thou"="Tu". The Quakers were notable for insisting on calling everyone "Thou" as opposed to using "You". Changing social conditions that made it harder to differentiate social superiors and inferiors caused "Thou" to fall out of use; it was safer/better to be overpolite than underpolite.

If there are non-binary people in the world, language should be able to adequately talk about them, but that doesn't mean we should make - or reinforce already existing - ambiguities in our language to account for it. At one point "computer" was not a word. Then we realized we needed a word to describe certain things, so, building on other words, we created this one. The language became more precise, not less. That should always be the goal.

An admirable goal. One problem though; English (like most languages) is pretty conservative. Repurpose an old word with a similar function rather than inject a new word into the mix. Fifty years of people pushing for alternative singular pronouns (Xe/Zie/E/Etc.) and no progress was made. On the other hand, They has managed to get momentum on its side in a relatively quickly.

Just another example; computer is actually a very old word, first seen in the 1640s. Of course, they weren't the same kind of computers, it meant "people who compute". Then, for a while there were "Mechanical Computers" and "Electronic Computers". Then, one kind of computer became so dominant that specifying the adjective became unnecessary.

[Winter]

Should a non-binary choice be available? I am going to say it is situational.
If the game is about a new(ish) character, go for it.
If you were to set a game in the Clone Wars and play as Anakin, then no. His character wasn't non-binary.

I completely agree, for example Geralt is presented as a hetero man and the games reflect that. He uses he/him pronouns and is shown to only be interested in women. You're not playing a character you created but rather you're role-playing as Geralt and all his choices and actions are a reflection of that. But Revan was made to be whoever you want him/her to be in the original KOTOR and while there was a a need for a canon Revan for the canon lore at the time Revan was to be played as you saw fit.

So, if there was an RPG where we played as, say, Mara Jade, the game should allow us some leeway to allow us to make our own choices BUT she is Mara and there for the choices should reflect that. As far as I know Mara has only shown romantic interest in one person (Luke Skywalker) is skilled in Lightsaber combat but also knows how to use a blaster and is cold and can be ruthless while still being able to remain calm and reasonable.

So, I completely agree on that and that characters like Geralt in the Witcher games should remain the character from the books while still giving us choices that give us freedom or the illusion of freedom that still fit with the character.

But characters like Revan, Shepard or any of the Dragon Age PCs should be whatever we want them to be. Man, Woman or Non-Binary, gay, straight, bi or ace, human, elf, dwarf, black, white, furry or purple. Revan was canonically male but I think the option should be to make him/her/them whom ever we want them to be.

[Madner Kami]

But characters like Revan, Shepard or any of the Dragon Age PCs should be whatever we want them to be.

Why though? You just pointed out yourself, that a character as imagined by the creator should remain as envisioned by the creator. Geralt is straight white male, because his creator made him straight white male. Mara Jade is straight redhead, because she was created as a straight redhead. Now where does that allow to criticize the choice of the creator(s) of Revan to make "it" a straight him who was canonically in love with Bastilla? Why do you as a player get a choice in that matter, but not the former?

I'm guessing you're actually aiming at internal consistency, so that a character who is X in one medium, isn't Y in the other and I agree, but that kinda flies past your criticism and doesn't concern it even tangentially.

[Nealithi]

But characters like Revan, Shepard or any of the Dragon Age PCs should be whatever we want them to be.

Why though? You just pointed out yourself, that a character as imagined by the creator should remain as envisioned by the creator. Geralt is straight white male, because his creator made him straight white male. Mara Jade is straight redhead, because she was created as a straight redhead. Now where does that allow to criticize the choice of the creator(s) of Revan to make "it" a straight him who was canonically in love with Bastilla? Why do you as a player get a choice in that matter, but not the former?

I'm guessing you're actually aiming at internal consistency, so that a character who is X in one medium, isn't Y in the other and I agree, but that kinda flies past your criticism and doesn't concern it even tangentially.

I would say because initially there was no 'right' choice and Revan was whatever you made them as? The Revan was a man came much later when he was put into SWtOR. Before he actually appeared there they even supported that no one was sure what the gender was.

[ProfessorDetective]

Like I said last time: if you're playing a predefined character, then no (unless that's the character they're predefining), if you're playing a character you define, then yes.

With my ideal there being replacing gender selects with a combo of builds/voices/pronouns. If I can make Avatar Korra, then BOTW Link, and then whatever the midpoint between them would be, and it all look decent in gameplay, then you've got it.

[Thebestoftherest]

Personal I feel Raven happened so long ago in the star wars universe you can have them be anything and the universe can correct itself.

[hammerofglass]

What I think would be fun is you make a non-binary option. Then have NPCs always refer to Revan as they/them no matter what you pick and make everyone refusing to explain it a Mystery. When The Reveal happens you have two paths; if the player chose a man or woman then Revan started doing it to help the Anonymous Avatar of the Dark Side aesthetic they had going and everybody just rolled with it out of politeness, and if the player chose non-binary you just get a fun "oh, I guess that makes sense" moment.