CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:10 pmIt would be dormant, perhaps, but dead is where DSC has left it due to the convoluted mess it has left of things. I'd rather have had a dormant, but revivable in the future, prime timeline that ended with Riker's end programme than the mess DSC has made of it. DCS in its own little weird universe could then do whatever the fuck it is it is doing without bothering the rest of the franchise.
Yes, it's completely dead except for the seven series in production.
Man, I swear, some fans are clinging to the "DISCO was a failure" meme more than JFK conspiracy theories.
I think a lot of fans consider the franchise dead, not in the sense that there will be no more works with the name Star Trek, but in the sense that they believe there will be no more works which actually meaningfully are Star Trek.
Or, alternatively, many think that the franchise is dead in the sense that the creative decisions made by Discovery leave the franchise in a position where there's no way to tell any kind of good or cogent stories any longer.
In other words, one way or the other a lot of people regard Star Trek as dead not because there will be no more things called Star Trek, but that they won't be worth watching.
Now you or anyone else may disagree with this view and that's perfectly fine - but the point is that it's a coherent view which really does describe a meaningful idea. Is that idea actually correct? That's a different discussion and people will differ on the answer - but it's nevertheless a viable belief such that when someone says "Star Trek is dead" they're expressing a valid opinion.
Its also a view as valid as thinking THE NEXT GENERATION was not "really" Star Trek and that had actual physical protests I remind you.
That DEEP SPACE NINE is a betrayal of the franchise and utter garbage.
These views are coherent and they are deeply felt but they are not things that have any value beyond taste.
And that's the same for hating Nu Trek, especially since some longtime (and I mean 40 year fans) love it outside the internet opinion sphere. Opinions are like antennae, every Andorian has one and they're all twitchy.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:21 am
Its also a view as valid as thinking THE NEXT GENERATION was not "really" Star Trek and that had actual physical protests I remind you.
That DEEP SPACE NINE is a betrayal of the franchise and utter garbage.
This old chestnut.
Not all complaints are equal.
"People complained before" is neither here nor there to absolve any complaints now about something else; you're ignoring the content of the criticism when you do this.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:21 am
Its also a view as valid as thinking THE NEXT GENERATION was not "really" Star Trek and that had actual physical protests I remind you.
That DEEP SPACE NINE is a betrayal of the franchise and utter garbage.
These views are coherent and they are deeply felt but they are not things that have any value beyond taste.
And that's the same for hating Nu Trek, especially since some longtime (and I mean 40 year fans) love it outside the internet opinion sphere. Opinions are like antennae, every Andorian has one and they're all twitchy.
I had at one point tried to research the claim that "TNG is not really Star Trek" was a common opinion when the show launched and I was unable to find much evidence for it. The closest thing I recall finding was an old newspaper article with a headline that said this was how fans were reacting, but the interviews in the text of the article itself did not, for the most part, actually say this. It was one of those (relatively common) cases where the headline says something much more eye-catching than the story actually does.
Beyond that, I couldn't find any contemporary evidence supporting this now common claim. On the contrary, almost everything I was able to find from that time period featured fans who were positive about the show.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:21 am
Its also a view as valid as thinking THE NEXT GENERATION was not "really" Star Trek and that had actual physical protests I remind you.
That DEEP SPACE NINE is a betrayal of the franchise and utter garbage.
These views are coherent and they are deeply felt but they are not things that have any value beyond taste.
And that's the same for hating Nu Trek, especially since some longtime (and I mean 40 year fans) love it outside the internet opinion sphere. Opinions are like antennae, every Andorian has one and they're all twitchy.
I had at one point tried to research the claim that "TNG is not really Star Trek" was a common opinion when the show launched and I was unable to find much evidence for it. The closest thing I recall finding was an old newspaper article with a headline that said this was how fans were reacting, but the interviews in the text of the article itself did not, for the most part, actually say this. It was one of those (relatively common) cases where the headline says something much more eye-catching than the story actually does.
Beyond that, I couldn't find any contemporary evidence supporting this now common claim. On the contrary, almost everything I was able to find from that time period featured fans who were positive about the show.
They were there believe me. It's just that TNG premiered in 1987. Not exactly a time where information from across the country and other countries was at your fingertips. At best you would woukd read something in the local newspaper sharing a AP article. Or a magazine article. But not like you would have a lot of fan interviews.
Outside of course, fan magazines of the time, or conventions.
Its not like that notion TNG was not Star Trek came out of nowhere. That at least predates Discovery, if you want to look up forums talking about TNG history.
DS9 had the same issue, between being on a station and a bit of racism mixed in too. Funny how now, DS9 is now considered the best of the Trek. Or at least the equal to TNG.
All the fans I knew were stoked for DS9 when it came out, nobody seemed upset by it. Well, JMS, but apart from him.
With TNG, they worked hard to make sure TOS fans felt included and welcomed by the new show. There was none of the desire to shut them out for headlines about a divided fanbase to grab publicity that DSC has had. They wanted old and new fans to come together with the launch of TNG, and if DSC had taken the same approach then maybe it wouldn't be so shite.
CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:10 pmIt would be dormant, perhaps, but dead is where DSC has left it due to the convoluted mess it has left of things. I'd rather have had a dormant, but revivable in the future, prime timeline that ended with Riker's end programme than the mess DSC has made of it. DCS in its own little weird universe could then do whatever the fuck it is it is doing without bothering the rest of the franchise.
Yes, it's completely dead except for the seven series in production.
The only Star Trek series in production is called The Orville, and it is on another network. The ones at CBS/Paramount/Whateverthefucktheyarecallingthemselvesnow are like a serial killer wearing the skin of their victim.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:21 am
Its also a view as valid as thinking THE NEXT GENERATION was not "really" Star Trek and that had actual physical protests I remind you.
That DEEP SPACE NINE is a betrayal of the franchise and utter garbage.
This old chestnut.
Not all complaints are equal.
"People complained before" is neither here nor there to absolve any complaints now about something else; you're ignoring the content of the criticism when you do this.
You assume that the previous content is invalid because you liked the new material. Maybe they're absolutely right that TNG and Deep Space Nine are not really Star Trek and only the original series (and movies) count.
I don't agree but what do you think the differences substantially are?
Last edited by CharlesPhipps on Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lazerlike42 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:55 am=
I had at one point tried to research the claim that "TNG is not really Star Trek" was a common opinion when the show launched and I was unable to find much evidence for it.
Thankfully, I can provide you some. It's the subject of a good chunk of the William Shatner Documentary CHAOS ON THE BRIDGE where, again, he shows physical protests and talks about how the Trekdom community wanted nothing to do with it.
CrypticMirror wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:15 amWith TNG, they worked hard to make sure TOS fans felt included and welcomed by the new show. There was none of the desire to shut them out for headlines about a divided fanbase to grab publicity that DSC has had. They wanted old and new fans to come together with the launch of TNG, and if DSC had taken the same approach then maybe it wouldn't be so shite.
DISCO bends over backwards to incorporate stuff from every part of Star Trek's franchise. It also has been such a success its led to spin offs and work for people that have given fans as well as actors a lot of new chances like Jery Ryan as Seven (that she can breathe in) plus Lower Decks that is a celebration of everything Trek. It's also led to things like Star Trek day and a massive revival of the property in other areas even if just in re-releasing all the books and comics.
You don't have to like it but the idea that DISCO is an enemy of the fans or franchise is nonsense.
I think there is a basis for saying that TOS Trek, TNG thru Enterprise Trek, and Discovery onward Trek function like separate franchises. They try to keep continuity with each other, and some people who worked on one will also work on another, but each has its own style and identity distinct from the other two.
