TNG - The Ensigns of Command

[Jonathan101]

The leaders might be forcing the population to stay and fight / die- what will the Federation do if they say "no-one is leaving?" or if the leaders withhold the information?

The latter is what happened in this episode- Data explained the situation to the leadership and he was asked to leave, and when he started telling the rest of the population what was happening Data was knocked out, so Data took more drastic action. If he simply walked away, even if he somehow took a few refugees (which was logistically difficult) he would still be condemning the rest to death.

There are thousands of colonists on this world and their impending doom is days away- it isn't logistically possible or reasonable to expect the whole society to digest and debate the facts before they are annihilated.

Are you saying that the Federation SHOULD have stood by and done nothing?

Should the western world stand by and do nothing while China annihilates the Uigurs and Tibetans; while the Taliban kill everyone who doesn't share they particular interpretation of a religion?

Are you saying that the Federation SHOULD have stood by and done nothing?

No, I didn't. And neither did the Federation stand by and did nothing.

So...are you supporting the Federation in this episode, or condemning them? It sounded like you were annoyed by their interference.

[Lazerlike42]

Is it weird that I see Gosheven's denial of wanting to leave in a slightly different light nowadays with a certain real world, very real incident we're dealing with that they didn't in the 1990s? Only we don't have a Data to make that forceful a point at the end.

[Look at what's bolded if you don't get what I mean.]

I mean, in fairness, there is a difference between ignoring a pandemic that has been spreading globally and ongoing for two or three years, and not believing a total stranger who just came down from the sky to tell them that their whole civilisation has days to live with no evidence.

You could easily do the same story from the POV of the colonists and play it like the Starfleet Officer may or may not be telling the truth- you could swap Data with an unknown officer or perhaps even make it Lore and have "Data" be genuinely trying to deceive the colonists for some nefarious purpose.

I think the two situations are disanalogous for a whole lot of other reasons, some of which I'm sure could be agreed upon by almost everyone and some of which might spark disagreement, but the easiest difference may be that there's a huge difference between saying, "all 15,000 of you will be killed no ifs, ands, or buts" and saying, "around 500 of your 15,000 might die."

[Madner Kami]

So...are you supporting the Federation in this episode, or condemning them? It sounded like you were annoyed by their interference.

I'm not supporting anything anywhere, I am discussing an allegorical tale, it's interpretation and lessons.

[CrypticMirror]

I wonder, perhaps, if the problem a lot of people have with episodes like this is routed in cultural history. Specifically, America has always been the one taking the land and the works of others. America is the Sheliak and the Cardassians, and every other nation on Earth has had experience of trading land and territory for the greater good so it isn't seen as such a big deal. Except in America, which only has experience of making others give up land to them in territorial disputes. Remember the Alamo, and the theft of the Oregon Territories, and a thousand other incidents where Manifest Destiny expanded the borders at the expense of people already living there. It is hard to accept the other side of that, but it is often necessary nonetheless.

[TGLS]

The thing is that both in EOC and the Maquis, the moral rightness of this position is going to/does get everyone killed because neither the Sheliak or Cardassians care about the rightness of the cause.

I dunno, I think the Maquis at least had the historical precedent of the Bajoran Insurgency. The Cardassians are apparently sensitive enough to casualties and the opinion of other states to force a withdrawal. The entry of the Dominion, who care about neither, changed things drastically.

[Fianna]

From the perspective of the Federation, allowing this colony to be wiped out without doing anything sets a terrible precedent- for instance, the Cardassians might use it to ask why Starfleet is getting involved in genocides that don't concern them when they have been perfectly happy to stand aside before; conversely, the leadership would be condemned by the public for allowing such a travesty to happen.

Except the Federation didn't stand by and watched. The Federation swooped in and told the settlers what is going to happen and offered an alternative, as well as negotiating with the Sheliak on behalf of these settlers, protecting them, creating a way out of an inevitable situation.

And even if the leaders want to stand and fight, nothing forces the population to stay and fight. If the leaders want to fight, let them. Just like in the Masterpiece Society in the end. Those who want to go, get a temporary living quarter on a luxury space cruise liner.

The leaders might be forcing the population to stay and fight / die- what will the Federation do if they say "no-one is leaving?" or if the leaders withhold the information?

The latter is what happened in this episode- Data explained the situation to the leadership and he was asked to leave, and when he started telling the rest of the population what was happening Data was knocked out, so Data took more drastic action. If he simply walked away, even if he somehow took a few refugees (which was logistically difficult) he would still be condemning the rest to death.

There are thousands of colonists on this world and their impending doom is days away- it isn't logistically possible or reasonable to expect the whole society to digest and debate the facts before they are annihilated.

Are you saying that the Federation SHOULD have stood by and done nothing?

Plus, there are undoubtedly children on the colony. Even if all the adults chose to stay and face the Sheliak, what about those too young to make an informed choice?

[Jonathan101]

With the Maquis, the Cardassians are definitely weaker than the Federation and they are dealing with multiple colonies across several former Federation worlds, and many Maquis are former Federation officers which makes the Federation even more involved. The Cardassians have already fought and lost a war with the Federation before so with all these things factored in, it makes sense why they would be less overtly genocidal from a purely pragmatic point of view.

In this episode, we don't know the strength of the Sheliak relative to the Federation (it could also just be a geography thing- maybe the planet in EOC is really far away) but they are only dealing with a single colony that only has a tenuous tie to the Federation from long ago. It's possible the Sheliak assumed that the Federation knew about this colony and that was the only reason they contacted them- if they thought the Federation knew nothing they might just have obliterated them without anyone knowing, depending on whether they are more "Lawful" or more "Evil". Unlike the Maquis, these colonists have zero f*cking chance at saving themselves from the Sheliak regardless of how strong or weak the Sheliak are compared to the Federation- it seems more likely that the Sheliak were just worried about provoking a war.

[Nealithi]

Reading through all the replies there is much to be said.
First if an American ship beached on an island and a few generations went by before they were found. Would the US wash their hands of them because they were not connected for a few years? Or would we basically treat them like lost sons and daughters? I bet no one would consider them to be an independent nation.
The start up relocation issue in TNG the was the basis for the Maquis had some merit beyond the weird Traveler/American Indian thing. They wanted the Federation colonies and the Cardassian colonies to swap worlds. But as DS9 has shown us they trash the place when they leave. While the Federation would sweep up and have a fruit basket out for the new tenants. Then there are physical differences creating different needs between the cardassians and humans. Cardassians like hotter drier climates than humans. So give up those nice plains and forests for a desert. And it does not look as much fun for the cardassians either. And these colonists do have something to be said about what they built. I spend a few decades building my house and the houses of my neighbors. "Those are things. They can be replaced. Lives cannot." Yeah the decades of my life put into this and then taken away because someone in a nice apartment on Earth with replicated meals decided I had to give it all up? You can make a point on all that in the cardassian/maquis issue. And those colonists had done nothing wrong. They had permission to be there. Then it was yanked away. How much freedom do you have?
To compare the two stories. This is China wanting to annex Hawaiian islands and the US saying sure. Everyone off get off them for the Cardassian story. But here we have that crashed American ship? Yeah it is actually on Russian soil. They want us to get them out or they will.
One was there on purpose and all the free will and yanked away by a politician waving a paper saying "I got a treaty! I got a treaty!" Like a kindergartner getting a gold star.
The other is an actual trespass.

[Fianna]

I thought the Maquis colonists knew from the beginning that there were disputes with the Cardassians about who owned the planets in the question?

[Jonathan101]

Reading through all the replies there is much to be said.
First if an American ship beached on an island and a few generations went by before they were found. Would the US wash their hands of them because they were not connected for a few years? Or would we basically treat them like lost sons and daughters? I bet no one would consider them to be an independent nation.

----

The other is an actual trespass.

It isn't really trespassing since they crashed there and couldn't leave and the ones we see were all born there.

It also isn't clear to me if the treaty was signed before or after they crashed (if after, it is similar to the Maquis situation except done in ignorance), though that is really besides the point.

In the real world, legally they would be considered citizens of whatever country whose territory they happened to be residing in- the USA / Federation would have no legal obligation to help, though it would certainly raise eyebrows if it was learned that the Sheliak wiped them out. It doesn't matter how they got there and what the proposed real-life Sheliak analogue were threatening is tantamount to genocide.

If something like this happened in the real world then the colonists would definitely be protected under international law, and whoever tried to force them out or threatened to eradicate them would be committing a crime against humanity (yes, even the "threat" of eradication constitutes a crime).

You can't really apply real world logic to this situation because the real world, at present, has laws specifically designed to protect people like this. There aren't really any true historical precedents that I am aware of since shipwrecks hardly ever led to the survivors starting a prosperous new colony; the closest would be immigrants who founded a community and were subsequently discriminated against by the local government...which we generally frown upon.