Nealithi wrote: ↑Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:36 pm
@Rodan56
I do not want to get too far into the argument on 'Detroit: Become Human' because I only played the demo.
I do want to ask. I thought the geth in Mass Effect did not start fighting back against their own destruction till a quarian trying to defend them was killed? Basically someone violated the first rule of robotics and that was when it became a war?
I think the writers at Bioware wanted to portray the Geth as innocent victims, ignoring the fact that they had to have mass exterminated huge numbers of Quarian civilians and children to eliminate all of them on the Quarian homeworld. Ditto since we found out that some Quarians allied with the Geth and were presumably killed too.
It didn't fit the "story" they wanted to tell when it actually was more interesting that the Geth were absolutely right to fight for their freedom and yet did commit unforgivable atrocities.
Thebestoftherest wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:23 am
Umm the Geth keep giving Quarian a chance, and Quarian keep declaring war.
Yeah, executing all of the Quarians who sided with them probably gave a bad impression.
I know people argue that the other Quarians did it but that just is part of the, "Geth did nothing wrong" faction that is silly.
Where do you take the idea from, that the Geth executed those Quarians who took their side in the conflict? It is outright stated in two of the "memories" of the Geth Concensus, that the Quarians who tried to defend the Geth were hunted and ultimately killed by their own kind. While the Quarians waged war against their own creation, they opened a second front and waged war on their own kind. Probots and the Robophobes...
And remember: Geth are a kind of localized swarm conciousness. If one platform takes an action, every other platform within in communication-range has decided and consented to the exact same action. Geth explicitly and conciously choose to not fight their own eradication in order to protect their quarian defenders. Only once it was proven, that this action didn't protect their defenders, did the Geth actually begin to wage a ware, while the Quarians continued their infighting until only one side remained, one side that was too weak to fight such a war and had only one choice: To flee. Which the Geth explicitly allowed despite being capable of stopping the exodus.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
Yeah, it's such bullshit. The Geth are guilty of genocide and any attempt to say otherwise show they're unrepentant about it. But it is one of the retcons that explicitly makes me furious because it's such a complete cheat to remove any sense of moral ambiguity from the conflict and transform the Geth from people complicit in a genocide to being total moral victims.
It offends me as a writer.
So I definitely think of it as bad writing at best and the Geth outright lying at worse.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:42 am
Yeah, it's such bullshit. The Geth are guilty of genocide and any attempt to say otherwise show they're unrepentant about it. But it is one of the retcons that explicitly makes me furious because it's such a complete cheat to remove any sense of moral ambiguity from the conflict and transform the Geth from people complicit in a genocide to being total moral victims.
It offends me as a writer.
So I definitely think of it as bad writing at best and the Geth outright lying at worse.
The problem is it is entirely possible to write the whole thing as the Geth are innocent. Very easily. Some Quarians tried to defend the Geth and were killed. Mobs do occur. Local Geth fight back to protect those trying to defend them. The Geth out number the Quarian population before it divides into pro and anti Geth sentiments. So several panicked people are loaded into ships to flee. The military leaders go scorched earth on the planet hoping to wipe out the opposition. But the damage killed the quarians that remained behind. Many of the geth survived. So those in charge of the now refugee fleet began a political spin. Both in asking the Council for aid, but to their own people so they remain in power.
Where is the proof? Data stores on the homeworld that show the fleeing ships not being fired upon. But dropping nukes behind them.
Nealithi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:16 am
The problem is it is entirely possible to write the whole thing as the Geth are innocent. Very easily. Some Quarians tried to defend the Geth and were killed. Mobs do occur. Local Geth fight back to protect those trying to defend them. The Geth out number the Quarian population before it divides into pro and anti Geth sentiments. So several panicked people are loaded into ships to flee. The military leaders go scorched earth on the planet hoping to wipe out the opposition. But the damage killed the quarians that remained behind. Many of the geth survived. So those in charge of the now refugee fleet began a political spin. Both in asking the Council for aid, but to their own people so they remain in power.
Where is the proof? Data stores on the homeworld that show the fleeing ships not being fired upon. But dropping nukes behind them.
I mean you can write whatever you want but it's terrible storytelling, a horrible retcon, and nonsensical. As a longtime mass effect, I just flat out would have my Shepard assume the Geth are lying. Which, fine, it makes them more human.
Nealithi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:16 am
The problem is it is entirely possible to write the whole thing as the Geth are innocent. Very easily. Some Quarians tried to defend the Geth and were killed. Mobs do occur. Local Geth fight back to protect those trying to defend them. The Geth out number the Quarian population before it divides into pro and anti Geth sentiments. So several panicked people are loaded into ships to flee. The military leaders go scorched earth on the planet hoping to wipe out the opposition. But the damage killed the quarians that remained behind. Many of the geth survived. So those in charge of the now refugee fleet began a political spin. Both in asking the Council for aid, but to their own people so they remain in power.
Where is the proof? Data stores on the homeworld that show the fleeing ships not being fired upon. But dropping nukes behind them.
I mean you can write whatever you want but it's terrible storytelling, a horrible retcon, and nonsensical. As a longtime mass effect, I just flat out would have my Shepard assume the Geth are lying. Which, fine, it makes them more human.
How does someone being innocent and the descendants of their opponents being lied to terrible story telling? Is it only good story telling if every person in the universe is a baby killing genocidal murderer? Seems a bit too meh to me. "Oooh everyone is evil." Now me, I like hearing that another side in a conflict is not black hat no qualms about slaughtering all of them. Sure you can have a classic mustache twirling, puppy kicking, tie the girl to the railroad tracks villain. But to have an entire race or even country be nothing but that sounds more poor writing to me. I forget what forum rule/meme I am breaking. But Nazis. Now there is a big difference between a WW2 Nazi and a WW2 German soldier. One follows an objectively reprehensible ideal, the other has a multitude of reasons he may be raising a rifle. Capture them both. At the end of the war, one is a war criminal and one goes home. And that does not get into civilians, IE non-combatants. Because if the geth that went to the reapers can be rogues. That means the geth are not 100% unified doesn't it?
Nealithi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:13 pm
How does someone being innocent and the descendants of their opponents being lied to terrible story telling? Is it only good story telling if every person in the universe is a baby killing genocidal murderer? Seems a bit too meh to me. "Oooh everyone is evil."
Somehow the victims of a mass deportation were the bad guys in a genocidal war. That resembles a lot of real life genocide apologia.
"Listen, we may have superior weapons and kept the worlds but it was those scheming dirty Je...err Quarians...who were the real villains."
Given the Quarians are partially based on Semitic peoples in diaspora, it's an ugly ugly bit of storytelling.
But this is strictly Doylist objection to it, not Wastonian.
