TNG - Half a Life

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AllanO
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by AllanO »

Just on the issue of this episode. In addition to the attempt to present a simplified version of the debates around euthanasia (assisted suicide etc.) there is also the issue of treatment of the elderly and the organization of things like care homes for the elderly.

As I recall in the 90s this was a hot button issue with the neglect and abuse suffered by some in such care homes a source of shock and shame. The issue lead to recriminations that modern Western society fails to value the old compared to other societies and it was often seen as a deep social problem, I remember an episode of the X-files (looking it up Excelsis Dei) had a similar ripped from the headlines feel about abuse and neglect at a nursing home and a Malaysian who is horrified at the way Americans deal (or fail to deal) with the elderly. As I said this whole thing may have been just too simplified, but I can see a lot of the roots of how it might have seemed like a good idea to some writer etc.
Frustration wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:45 pm And there you're wrong. The way the aliens react to the news strongly indicates that unwillingness to complete the traditional suicide isn't unexpected or new. Furthermore, there is quite clearly a long list of social consequences associated with expressing unease or discontent with the tradition, much less actively flouting it.

"You'll bring shame and dishonor to the family" is and has been a powerful motivator in many cultures, including our own.

That kind of pressure can be extensive, without qualifying as coercion.


As I recall part of the narrative of the episode is basically everyone goes along with this practice, turn 60 and off yourself, the idea of someone not doing it seems almost unheard of based on the reaction of the character to Lwaxana suggesting not doing it yet it is referred to as suicide. To be clear the implications of my phrasing of my statement was basically it seems like they must be lying about everyone going along and it being voluntary. Now you seem to think they were lying about universal compliance which is fine, but if not everyone is actually committing suicide at 60 that is one way of answering my objection that it sounds unrealistic that everyone just goes along with this stark rule: yeah it is unrealistic obviously they don't all go along with it.

Note it is perfectly possible for something to never have happened before and for people to be able to predict that it will have negative social consequences and even the kind of consequence. No one to my knowledge has ever walked down main street of a town naked except for body paint in the style of the aliens from Let This Be Your Last Battlefield singing the Star Trek theme song, but I can well believe that if someone announces this plan to their daughter she would warn that it would bring shame upon the family if they did it. So I'm not sure that exchange proves what you think it does.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by CharlesPhipps »

I mean it's not just social pressure, it's outright exile.

"We will not let you save our star" is pretty explicit.
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Madner Kami
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by Madner Kami »

Explicit, stupid and pointless. What would they do? Blockade their system with the ships they don't have? The Federation swoops in, fixes the star and then... they all commit suicide, because they can't bear living under a sun that was fixed by a 60 year old man?
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by Fianna »

Would the Prime Directive allow that?
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by CharlesPhipps »

Fianna wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:32 pm Would the Prime Directive allow that?
I mean, Kirk would.

Picard: Fuck these guys. Let Darwin takes its course.
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Frustration
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by Frustration »

I rather got the impression that it was the request for political asylum that got the aliens' goat.

In any case, I think you're reading more into my reading of the situation that I'm actually suggesting. I just doubt very much that this scientist is the first person to ever be uncomfortable with this custom - and the biggest issue in his mind seems to be that he has tremendous experience working to solve the problem with their star and believes his continued contribution might be critical. He's not questioning the custom merely because he doesn't want to die - although that would probably also be an issue.
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KitWargSpectacle
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

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Beastro wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:22 am
JL_Stinger wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:02 am
Riedquat wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:26 pmToo bad if you reach 80 in good health eh? My grandpa was still walking a few miles every day until a few months before he died at 91. He was over 80 the last time he went white water rafting. Read maths books right up until the day he died.
Survivorship bias. Most people are not so fortunate as do die suddenly while in seemingly good physical and mental health. Usually there is a slow, agonizing decline: cancer, Alzheimers, dementia, Parkinson's, heath problems, broken hips, macular degeneration, etc.
I think more people would give a fig about obesity and exercise if the effort got them another 30 years of prime life rather than another 30 years of having someone wipe your ass for you because you have forgotten how to.
Hm, huh? Exercise and healthy lifestyle *do* prolong prime life, and improve/prolong post-prime life too.

Whether it then also prolongs your dementia etc. phase, I'm not even sure whether it does.


clearspira wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:51 amI know someone in my life in their early twenties with a parent slowly dying of kidney failure in their late 50s. They're on their last gasps, bedridden with dialysis working less and less each day. The thing is, this person inherited the same kidney trouble.

Now, you'd think they'd be freaking out making sure to take nice good care of their kidneys to make it themselves over 60 at least, but no, it's me who is the one bugging to get more water into them and such. You know what the reply to that is? "Uguuuh! But if I do that then I'll have to pee all the time and I don't wanna bother with that!!".

We all have our own faults when it comes to long term troubles. I mean with my own family's history of heart trouble I bet I'm not doing exactly everything I can do forestall it.
Preferring an optimal prime life during youth to managing a declining old age life, is a good trade-off decision to some.
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by KitWargSpectacle »

drewder wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:24 pm The ironic part is in this episode we're supposed to agree that the society is wrong and the system should be abolished but the system is what has worked for this society and no attempt is made to understand why the society is the way it is. It's that sort of short sighted, knee jerk reaction that the prime directive is supposed to protect against. You might say that Lwaxana isn't in star fleet but she is listed as a federation ambassador so she should be held to the standards of the federation even more than a pseudo-military officer. This is exactly what the prime directive is supposed to govern even if the show seems to believe that it's mostly about moralizing while letting primitive people die.
I'm not sure how their society is in peril if some dudes escape their planet when the time comes? Either way they're rid of them lol.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by CharlesPhipps »

I mean all ambiguity goes out the window in the fact the guy wants to live and can't without losing his family and having all of his planet saving work thrown out.
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Re: TNG - Half a Life

Post by KitWargSpectacle »

CharlesPhipps wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:33 pm I mean all ambiguity goes out the window in the fact the guy wants to live and can't without losing his family and having all of his planet saving work thrown out.
Oh wait fuck was that what was gonna happen? I thought "someone else will finish where you left off, so it's cool you can get euthanized lol" and that was it lol

Losing his family well yeah, if he permanently leaves their planet and the family is so obsessed with this rule that they'll "love him but be ashamed of him", then it does suck - but I thought that was the highest stake there lol; man I'm rusty :o
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