Watching ST all the way through (on DS9 Season 5)

[KitWargSpectacle]

^^ didn’t know that about Pegg’s regard of the plinket review. Not a bad touch.

Yeah he said he liked it, or sth to that effect. Obv he was also already one of the people trying to push that series into a more authentic/idealistic direction.

[clearspira]

''Starfleet is not a military''. How many times has this forum completely disproven that idea? The Federation is the most authoritarian liberal utopia I have ever seen.

[KitWargSpectacle]

''Starfleet is not a military''. How many times has this forum completely disproven that idea? The Federation is the most authoritarian liberal utopia I have ever seen.

Well idk the Federation is the liberal utopia, Starfleet more like a naval exploration organization - they need strict rules and subordination because of the dangers and challenges involved etc.

Although idk when did interplanetary conflicts start again, before TOS or only after it started? Cause if the former, then Pike recruiting Kirk happened before any serious pew-pew lol


Obviously once they had to fight the Klingons and Romulans and Ferengi etc., they became part "military" by definition.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

''Starfleet is not a military''. How many times has this forum completely disproven that idea? The Federation is the most authoritarian liberal utopia I have ever seen.

And you're not helping with it!

[Riedquat]

''Starfleet is not a military''. How many times has this forum completely disproven that idea? The Federation is the most authoritarian liberal utopia I have ever seen.

Well idk the Federation is the liberal utopia, Starfleet more like a naval exploration organization - they need strict rules and subordination because of the dangers and challenges involved etc.

Although idk when did interplanetary conflicts start again, before TOS or only after it started? Cause if the former, then Pike recruiting Kirk happened before any serious pew-pew lol


Obviously once they had to fight the Klingons and Romulans and Ferengi etc., they became part "military" by definition.

Is the Federation liberal or authoritarian or where in between? We don't get to see enough of what day to day life is for most people to be able to tell. The "Federation" might not be definable at all in those terms, we don't even know (AFAICT) how much autonomy and self-governance the various members have.

The "Starfleet is not military" line comes up now and again but has been proven inaccurate often enough, since we see plenty of military action from it. It's probably more accurate to say that it's not exclusively military, that military action is just one of its roles. And it may well be possible to be that without having as much of a military ethos as we have nowadays in that job.

[KitWargSpectacle]

''Starfleet is not a military''. How many times has this forum completely disproven that idea? The Federation is the most authoritarian liberal utopia I have ever seen.

Well idk the Federation is the liberal utopia, Starfleet more like a naval exploration organization - they need strict rules and subordination because of the dangers and challenges involved etc.

Although idk when did interplanetary conflicts start again, before TOS or only after it started? Cause if the former, then Pike recruiting Kirk happened before any serious pew-pew lol


Obviously once they had to fight the Klingons and Romulans and Ferengi etc., they became part "military" by definition.

Is the Federation liberal or authoritarian or where in between? We don't get to see enough of what day to day life is for most people to be able to tell. The "Federation" might not be definable at all in those terms, we don't even know (AFAICT) how much autonomy and self-governance the various members have.

The "Starfleet is not military" line comes up now and again but has been proven inaccurate often enough, since we see plenty of military action from it. It's probably more accurate to say that it's not exclusively military, that military action is just one of its roles. And it may well be possible to be that without having as much of a military ethos as we have nowadays in that job.

Hm well I'm not aware of any indications that the Federation citizens are under some kinda commie cult brainwash oppression getting micromanaged where they step lol, everything I can think of paints an idyllic lib picture; but maybe I'm way rusty on stuff lol

[Riedquat]

Hm well I'm not aware of any indications that the Federation citizens are under some kinda commie cult brainwash oppression getting micromanaged where they step lol, everything I can think of paints an idyllic lib picture; but maybe I'm way rusty on stuff lol

There are a few bits I find disturbing, such as the amount you're monitored and tracked on a starship, and I've got the impression it's not hard to find anyone on Earth (although that's often true enough for any TV or show where finding people isn't part of the plot). But I certainly doubt that there's any intention by the writers for there to be anything authoritarian about it.

[clearspira]

The Federation is supposedly free to all people. You can be whatever you want, look like whatever you want, love whoever you want. There is no war, sickness or poverty (until PIC anyway). That is what makes it a supposedly a left wing utopia.

But as Chuck has noted on many occasions, it fails the ''show don't tell'' test. Its a hellish police state that will put an ankle bracelet on you just for TALKING to a former Maquis (Non Sequitur). Not plot with - talk with. And whilst there is diversity of race and sex, diversity of THOUGHT is non-existent at least in earlier Trek's. Remember Janeway swooning at the sight of a 20th century beach?

And note how it has a ''world government''. Which means that we are all now singing from a hymn sheet comprised of very, very few political parties. In our world, in theory, if you don't like what the US is doing then you can move to another country. You can't do that in the Federation. The US (which doesn't actually exist anymore) has the exact same politics as Canada. And France. And Japan. And Saudi Arabia.

BTW, The Federation isn't communist, socialist or capitalist. These are systems that were created to make sense of our world of limited resources and money. The Federation is post-scarcity, again theoretically at least, should mean that it is operating on a ideological system beyond ours.

[Riedquat]

And note how it has a ''world government''. Which means that we are all now singing from a hymn sheet comprised of very, very few political parties. In our world, in theory, if you don't like what the US is doing then you can move to another country. You can't do that in the Federation. The US (which doesn't actually exist anymore) has the exact same politics as Canada. And France. And Japan. And Saudi Arabia.

You could however move to a different planet. But it does suggest a lack of cultural variety - we're already getting that anyway (quite depressing to see some city streets that could be anywhere in the world, with the same shops and people on them wearing the same clothing, and that's just on the visual side).

BTW, The Federation isn't communist, socialist or capitalist. These are systems that were created to make sense of our world of limited resources and money. The Federation is post-scarcity, again theoretically at least, should mean that it is operating on a ideological system beyond ours.

Good point that the usual labels largely don't fit. I say "largely" because there are obviously some limits, they can't just cook up as many starships as they want at the drop of a hat, but any ordinary day to day material concerns should be a complete non-issue, at least away from the frontier planets we sometimes see where there's a small colony starting up, without having the scale to have sufficient redunancy from any chance of shortfalls.

Do we have any idea what the population of Earth is at the time of, say, TNG?

[KitWargSpectacle]

The Federation is supposedly free to all people. You can be whatever you want, look like whatever you want, love whoever you want. There is no war, sickness or poverty (until PIC anyway). That is what makes it a supposedly a left wing utopia.

But as Chuck has noted on many occasions, it fails the ''show don't tell'' test. Its a hellish police state that will put an ankle bracelet on you just for TALKING to a former Maquis (Non Sequitur). Not plot with - talk with. And whilst there is diversity of race and sex, diversity of THOUGHT is non-existent at least in earlier Trek's. Remember Janeway swooning at the sight of a 20th century beach?

And note how it has a ''world government''. Which means that we are all now singing from a hymn sheet comprised of very, very few political parties. In our world, in theory, if you don't like what the US is doing then you can move to another country. You can't do that in the Federation. The US (which doesn't actually exist anymore) has the exact same politics as Canada. And France. And Japan. And Saudi Arabia.

BTW, The Federation isn't communist, socialist or capitalist. These are systems that were created to make sense of our world of limited resources and money. The Federation is post-scarcity, again theoretically at least, should mean that it is operating on a ideological system beyond ours.

Marxism also started on the premise that technological advances had enabled a (relative) post-scarcity utopia - now merely opposed by greedy capitalists, and no longer natural limitations.


In this case it probably depends whether they put any (high stakes) pressures on citizens - if they have the option to just chill in a nice house no matter what, then the distinctions between "capitalism socialism liberalism" shouldn't be that heavy in either case;

whether people get material rewards for their (voluntary) work, whether those rewards are determined by private contracts or regulations ensuring "fair" compensations, etc. etc., are probably all low-stakes issues there; maybe even not much more than cosmetic.



That Maquis thing is weird though. Or even just the way Picard got a 100000 yard stare over Ro "betraying him" and deciding to kill some evil Cardassians after all; don't save a planet, don't go extremist against those pasty lizard fascist, or you're a lowly monster of some sort.
Weird arrogant attitude about their own questionable values there - although they're inconsistent between episodes anyway.